1589 fleet

Chagy

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This looks very interesting because it seems they are in deep waters and hopefully in international waters…

“Shipwreck in Florida Waters” by Robert Marx

1589- For protection against the English squadron, which was known to be waiting for the returning Spanish ships from the West Indies, at the King’s orders, The Armada, TF and NE fleet sailed together from Havana on September 9th forming a very large convoy of about 100 ships. Soon after entering the Bahamas Channel the convoy was struck by a hurricane. Shortly after the hurricane beggan the NE Almiranta developed a very bad leak and fired a cannon for assistance. Before any aid could reach it, it sank in very deep waters in the mouth of the Bahamas Channel While running before the hurricane up the Bahamas Channel, three merchant naos also sank in 30 fathoms of water in about 30 degrees of latitude. Only the names of two of them were given in the documents:
”Santa Catalina” of 350 tons, Captain Domingo Ianes Ome, owned by Fernando Ome Coming from Mexico; and the “Jesus Maria” of 400 tons, Captain Francisco Salvago, owned by Domingo Sauli, also coming from Mexico, there is no mention of what their cargo consisted, but it is certain that the Almiranta, at least was carrying treasure

AGI Contratacion¸egajos 2949 and 731A

I was able to verify this information in “Seville et l’Atlantique” and I have to admit that good old Marx was pretty accrued on this one from 1 to 10 I will give him an 8. How ever The Almiranta was the “Jesus Maria” of 400 tons, Captain Francisco Salvago, owned by Domingo Sauli lost at sea after entering the Bahamas Channel and only 2 other naos sank, the ”Santa Catalina” of 350 tons, Captain Domingo Ianes Ome, owned by Fernando Ome and the “N.S. de Gracias” of 300 tons, Captain and owner Gaspar Lorenzo. Cahunu provides the same location for these 2 naos Bahamas Channel.

It seems that the disaster was much bigger than the one mentioned by Marx… So far I have been able find almost 17 wrecks of the same fleet not sure yet if they all sank in the same place the book is in French so it takes me more time than the usual…I will provide more information later on….

It also seems that the disaster is well documented since Chaunu provides a lot of sources from the archives but I don’t believe I have any documents of this particular.

Claudio Bonifacio also has some information on his book but he concentrated the information on “Nuestra Señora del Rosario” which wrecked in Portugal.

More later…..
 

jeff k

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Chagy... I just updated this on my website last night. Bob included some additional info in his new book, "The World's Richest Wrecks." He also said that 15 ships were lost near the Azores.

In 1589, for protection against an English squadron, which was known to be waiting for the returning Spanish ships from the West Indies, at the King's orders, the Armada and Flota de Tierra Firme and the Flota de Nueva Espana joined together in Havana, forming a very large convoy of about 100 ships which sailed from Havana on the 9th of September. Soon after entering the Bahama Channel, the convoy was struck by a hurricane. Shortly after the hurricane began, the Almiranta of the Flota de Nueva Espana, the “Magdalena,“ 650 tons, commanded by Captain Antonio Jorge Laden with over 1.25 million pesos in treasure, developed a bad leak and fired cannon for assistance. The galleon went down north of Miami in very deep water, and all but three of the 700 people aboard drowned before any aid could reach them. While running before the hurricane up the Bahama Channel, three merchant naos also sank in thirty fathoms of water in about thirty degrees of latitude. Only the names of two of them were given in the documents: “Santa Catalina,“ 350 tons, Captain Domingo Ianez Ome, owned by Fernando Ome, coming from Mexico; and the “Jesus Maria,“ 400 tons, Captain Francisco Salvago, owned by Domingo Sauli, also coming from Mexico. There is no mention of what their cargoes consisted, but it is certain that the Almiranta, at least, was carrying treasure.
 

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Chagy

Chagy

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Oh Boy!!! Not sure where Marx got this information but you may want to update your website again…LOL…. The Almiranta of the New Spain Fleet was “Jesus Maria” of 400 tons, Captain Francisco Salvago, owned by Domingo Sauli and the General of the fleet was Martin Perez de Olozabal or Olazabal
 

jeff k

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Chagy said:
Oh Boy!!! Not sure where Marx got this information but you may want to update your website again…LOL…. The Almiranta of the New Spain Fleet was “Jesus Maria” of 400 tons, Captain Francisco Salvago, owned by Domingo Sauli and the General of the fleet was Martin Perez de Olozabal or Olazabal

Chagy... Maybe the Magdalena was the the Almiranta of the Tierra Firme fleet? That would even be better, because there would probably be more gold aboard. :)
 

ivan salis

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maybe one was the almiranta and the other the captina * normally the larger vessel was the big dog vessel * of the fleet but that was not always the case -- ( the commander usually picked what he thought was the "best vessel" most sound hull wize / best sailing *** or sometime just the largest and most armed vessel of the fleet for his "command ship". )with the 2nd best to bring up the rear -capitina)

marx (who i do respect very much) while very very good is only human * after all , as we all are and can make a error or two now and then.
 

Goldminer

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" an error or two" ? There is no mention by ANY author of a hurricane in 1589. There is written by Desiderio Herrera, Tannehill, and others of a hurricane in 1588.
Melero concerning this hurricane says in a Havana journal: "1588. A furious hurricane, more destructive than that of 1557."
Area: Cuba
No mention of any ships lost, however.
 

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Chagy

Chagy

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Ok!!! Marx was right on something in fact "La Madalena" was the Almiranta and "N.S. del Rosario was the Capitana of the TF fleet but in the out bound trip some vessels left San Lucar on March 1st and the rest left Cadiz on March 13 I have to see the return voyage...How ever there is no mention of "La Madalena" sinking....

Goldminer,

You are correct there is no mention of a 1589 hurricane, the 1588 fleet also had some wrecks and I believe so did the 1590 fleet...
 

Salvor6

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Chagy I have all the documents from Seville on the 1589 fleet. There were 14 ships that sank. The two big galleons Santa Catalina and Jesus Maria you mentioned also two more big galleons, the Capitana of Honduras owned by Toribio Descalante and the La Trinidad, Capt. Martin Monte Bernardo sank with 397,684 pesos in coins and 392,776 pesos in silver ingots.
Herbo Humphries searched for this fleet with his vessel the Beacon back in the 90's. He hired Paul Whitaker to do the remote sensing. They didn't find anything but Paul told me later that he thinks he found an anomaly that might be one of the nao's. I believe the fleet sank around the FL/GA boarder in deep water.
I also got some of the records from Simancas, Guerra y Marina legajo 254, expediente 199.
 

Alexandre

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Goldminer said:
There is no mention by ANY author of a hurricane in 1589.
No mention of any ships lost, however.


For the Azores wrecks in 1589 (1 portuguese galleon from Malaca and 3 spanish naos):

AGI, ContrataciĂłn 2449, San Lucar de Barrameda, 22 de Novembro de 1589.

Relacion que Damos Nos, Luis Ortega, piloto y Alonso Perez, capitan del navio nombrado/
La Esperanza qu es de su Majestad, y ha entrado en el puerto de Sanlucar oy miércoles/
22 noviembre 1589 Anos que llevo por Almiranta [sic] el General Juan de oriue/

En 11 de septiembre Salimos de la Hauana. 32 nauios/
Los nueue com plata que son los Siguientes/

La capitana de Nueva España/
La capitana de juan de Uribe Apallua/
La nao de Pedro Allo que Uiene por Almiranta/
La francesa donde venia pedro ssanchez escudero/
La Nao de Juan Baptista espindola/
La nao de gaspar de Maya/
La nao de Alonso martin Marquez/
La nao de Diego de Narea la pequena/

Desembocamos en 5 dias y en 31 grados y médio/
despues de desembocados nos dio ocho dias de/
brisas naturales donde el segundo dia de la brisa/
se aparto Una nao de la florida y una galizabra/
y en 23 de septiembre la nao de malaça La/
dexamos en la mar Abierta por la proa, este/
dia se perdieron de nuestra compania cuatro naos que eran/
el Almiranta y La saluadora y el frances y Una/
fregata de la florida.

A primero de octubre despacho el General/
Um nauio de Aviso para castilla./
A 2 de del dicho como A las dez Uimos en la/
Un Humo com bonanca de la mar y/
Uiento y el general nos JmbiĂł a nosotros y/
a los demas pataches y llegamos a el/
como A las 10 de la noche y Uimos que era//
Una nao grande e dimos cuatro O cinco buel/
tas A la redonda por el ver se hallauamos/
alguna gente en la Madera y hallamos los/
Arboles y Uelas y no hallamos Ninguna persona/
y nos dixo Un patache que no pasasemos/
adelante que auia Uisto Un farol y que/
Entendia que eran naos de Inglaterra y/
Otro dĂ­a siguiente hablamos Con Un patache/
y nos ensenĂł poleas y motones por las quaes/
Entendió que era el françes de la plata A 5/
dias de dicho mes Uimos quatro Uelas/
Al norte de nosotros y el general Alvaro Flores/
embiĂł a Uer que naos eran y como a puestas/
del sol conoscimos que eran las que se auian/
apartado y Tomando platica dellas/
nos dixeron que el frances se auia Abierto por/
abaxo y que no le podian Tomar el agua/
y assi se determinaron a sacarle la plata y bastimientos/
y todo lo que del se pudieron aprovechar/
y luego le pegaron fuego.

A 16 de el mes A media noche nos dio Un tiempo/
el Uiento en el Oeste que nos hizo correr con/
el papa figo del trinquete y nos Hizo apar/
tar del Armada y por no correr con el navio/
echamos un cable por la popa hasta otro dia/
y assi se huBieron las diligencias posibles para jun/
tarnos con la Armada corriendo Por Buena Altura/
Por 39 y 40 grados y dos tercios Uenimos/
a Uer el Cueruo Uispera de todos sanctos//

Nosotros y otro navio de nuestra Compania/
que Hallamos sin Arbol mayor y entre san/
Jorge y la graciosa hallamos Un navio in/
gles y anduuo A las bueltas para juntar/
se Con nosotros y no pudo y assi entramos/
En la Tercera donde Hallamos 15/
naos de la flota de nueva España que no osaban/
Salir por miedo de siete naos Jnglesas/
que les estauan guardando la Jsla y en ellas/
andaua por general el conde de Cumberland.
destas naos auian peleado 4 dellas a Uista/
de la Tercera con Una nao y Un patache/
que no se sabe que nao; era y otro navio/
Jngles peleo, con francisco granillo tres dias/
y Como una legua de la Terçera Le dió Un/
balazo A la lumbre del Agua y se fue/
a fondo y se Ahogaron del dicho navio 60

Personas/ y escapo a nado el dicho granillo con 16 personas/
Tomo este Jngles la nao de Inigo de lurriaga/
Hicieron Uarar en el faial Un nauio/
de Santo domingo y otro de Pedro de Oleguis/
de Honduras/

Las naos que se desampararon en la mar

La catalina de fernando home
La Maria de Cadiz
Dos naos de Fernando Cauallero
La nao de Campeche, capitana de Honduras//

De la Ciudad De Angla en las/
Tercereas partimos con otro nauio, en Domingo 5/
De noviembre Presente la buelta de España en companhia de/
15 naos que estauan en aquele puerto de las [sic] De la/
flota de nueva España de que Uenia por/
capitan Gentil Uasilio y por Almirante Rodrigo/
madera y Uenimos la buelta del Cabo/
de san Vicente Hasta ponerse en altura de 36/
grados y medio. Todas las dichas 16 naos juntas/
y llegaron sobre el dicho cabo de san Vicente Sabado/
18 de noviembre presente y aquella noche Como A las/
10 oras oyeron 3 o 4 preças de Artillaria/
cerca dellos y el domingo siguiente al Ama/
necer ReConocieron 3 nauios Jngleses los/
dos de 500 toneladas y el otro de 250/
y habia [en] el Cabo otros dos nauios que en/
tendieron ser de Jngleses que Remolcandolos/
con lanchas porque habia calma. Y se jun/
taron la nao capitana Jnglesa y la Almiranta de Rodrigo madera y en espacio de Una ampole/
ta TirĂł la Jnglesa a la Almiranta de que/
dera 83 pieças de Artilharia por la Vanda/
de Vabor hast desapareseca el Trinquete/
y a Viendolo hecho dexo aquella nao como/
Rendida y despuestas las otras naos donde/
La dicha nao Jnglesa y la otra de 250 toneladas//

Las leuaua A las demas naos de Jndias AnteCogidas y A cañoneándolas/
y assi teniendo por cierto y por sin dubda/
que tomaron dellas 5 o 6 naos/
porquelas Uieron Amaynadas que es senal/
de estar Rendidas y el nauio destes/
deClarantes dio todas las Uelas y lle/
go al cabo de Santa Maria y de alli Vino a este puerto/
donde entro oy miércoles 22 de noviembre 1589/
y que esta es la Verdad para el Juramento/
que Hubieron y lo firmaron | luis d ortega/
Alonso Perez//




Also, check Linschoten's Itinerary and Lord Cumberland diary, "The voiage of the right honorable George Erle of Cumberland to the Azores,
&c. Written by the excellent Mathematician and Enginier master Edward Wright":


"(...) Vpon Munday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, we plyed to and fro about those
Islandes, being very rough weather. And vpon Thursday at night, being
driuen some three or foure leagues from Tercera, we saw fifteene saile of
the West-Indian Fleete comming into the Hauen at Angra in Tercera. But the
winde was such, that for the space of foure dayes after, though wee lay as
close by the winde as was possible, yet we could not come neere them. In
this time we lost our late French Prize, not being able to lie so neere the
winde as we, and heard no more of her till we came to England where shee
safely arrriued. Vpon Munday we came very neere the Hauens month, being
minded to haue runne in amongst them, and to haue fetched out some of them
if it had beene possible: But in the end this enterprise was deemed too
daungerous, considering the strength of the place where they rode, being
haled and towed in neerer the towne, at the first sight of our approching,
and lying vnder the protection of the Castle of Brasil, on the one side
(hauing in it fiue and twentie peeces of Ordinance) and a fort on the other
side wherein were 13 or 14 great brasse pieces. Besides, when we came neere
land the winde prooued too scant for vs to attempt any such enterprise.

Vpon Tuesday the fourteenth of October we sent our boate to the roade to
sound the depth, to see if there were any ankoring place for vs, where we
might lie without shot of the Castle and Fort, and within shot of some of
those shippes, that we might either make them come out to vs, or sinke them
where they lay. Our boate returned hauing found out such a place as we
desired, but the winde would not suffer vs to come neere it, and againe if
we could haue ankered there, it was thought likely that they would rather
runne themselues a ground to saue their liues and liberties, and some of
their goods, then come foorth to loose their liberties and goods to vs
their enemies. So we shot at them to see if we could reach them, but it
fell farre short. And thus we departed, thinking it not probable that they
would come foorth so long as we watched for them before the hauens mouth,
or within sight of them. For the space of fiue dayes after we put off to
sea, and lay without sight of them, and sent a pinnesse to lie out of sight
close by the shore, to bring vs word if they should come foorth. After a
while the Pinnesse returned and told vs that those shippes in the Hauen had
taken downe their sayles, and let downe their toppe mastes: so that wee
supposed they would neuer come foorth, till they perceiued vs to bee quite
gone.

Wherefore vpon the 20 of October, hearing that there were certaine Scottish
ships at Saint Michael, we sayled thither, and found there one Scottish
roader, and two or three more at Villa Franca, the next road a league or
two from the towne of S. Michael, to the Eastwards: of whom we had for our
reliefe some small quantitie of wine (viz. some fiue or sixe buttes of them
all) and some fresh water, but nothing sufficient to serue our turne.

Vpon Tuesday the one and twentieth of October, we sent our long boate to
shore for fresh water at a brooke a little to the Westwards from Villa
Franca.

But the Inhabitants espying vs came downe with two Ensignes displayed, and
about some hundred and fiftie men armed, to withstand our landing. So our
men hailing spent all their pouder vpon them in attempting to land, and not
being able to preuaile at so great oddes, returned frustrate.

From thence we departed towards Saint Maries Iland, minding to water there,
and then to goe for the coast of Spaine. For we had intelligence that it
was a place of no great force, and that we might water there very well:
therefore vpon Friday following, my Lord sent Captaine Lister, and Captaine
Amias Preston now Sir Amias Preston (who not long before came to vs out of
his owne shippe, and she loosing vs in the night, hee was forced to tarry
still with vs) with our long boate and Pinnesse, and some sixtie or
seuentie shotte in them, with a friendly letter to the Ilanders, that they
would grant vs leaue to water, and we would no further trouble them.

So we departed from the Victorie for the Iland, about nine of the clocke in
the afternoone, and rowed freshly vntill about 3 a clocke afternoone. At
which time our men being something weary with rowing, and being within a
league or two of the shore, and 4 or 5 leagues from the Victorie, they
espied (to their refreshing), two shippes ryding at anker hard vnder the
the towns, whereupon hauing shifted some 6 or 7 of our men into Captaine
Dauis his boate, being too much pestered in our owne, and retayning with vs
some 20 shot in the pinnesse, we made way towardes them with all the speede
we could.

By the way as we rowed we saw boates passing betwixt the roaders and the
shore, and men in their shirtes swimming and wading to shoare, who as we
perceiued afterwardes, were labouring to set those shippes fast on ground,
and the Inhabitants as busily preparing themselues for the defence of those
roaders, their Iland, and themselues. When we came neere them, Captaine
Lister commaunded the Trumpets to be sounded, but prohibited any shot to be
discharged at them, vntill they had direction from him: But some of the
companie, either not well perceiuing or regarding what he sayd, immediately
vpon the sound of the Trumpets discharged their pieces at the Islanders;
which for the most part lay in trenches and fortefied places vnseene, to
their owne best aduantage: who immediatly shot likewise at vs, both with
small and great shot, without danger to themselues: Notwithstanding
Captaine Lister earnestly hastened forward the Saylers that rowed, who
beganne to shrinke at that shot, flying so fast about their eares, and
himselfe first entring one of the shippes that lay a litle further from
shoare then the other, we spedily followed after him into her, still plying
them with our shot And hauing cut in sunder her Cables and Hausers, towed
her away with our Pinnesse. In the meane time Captaine Dauis his boate
ouertooke vs and entred into the other shippe, which also (as the former)
was forsaken by all her men: but they were constrayned to leaue her and to
come againe into their boate (whilest shot and stones from shoare flew fast
amongst them) finding her to sticke so fast a grounde, that they could not
stire her: which the Townesmen also perceiuing, and seeing that they were
fewe in number, and vs (busied about the other ship) not comming to ayde
them, were preparing to haue come and taken them. But they returned vnto
vs, and so together we came away towards the Victory, towing after vs the
Prize that we had now taken, which was lately come from Brasil, loden with
Sugar.

In this fight we had two men slaine and 16 wounded: and as for them, it is
like they had little hurt, lying for the most part behind stone walles,
which were builded one aboue another hard by the sea side, vpon the end of
the hill whereupon the Towne stoode betwixt two vallies. Vpon the toppe of
the hill lay their great Ordinance (such as they had) wherewith they shot
leaden bullets, whereof one pierced through our Prizes side, and lay still
in the shippe without doing any more harme.

The next day we went againe for water to the same Iland, but not knowing
before the inconuenience and disuaduantage of the place where we attempted
to land, we returned frustrate.

The same night the 25 of October we departed for S. Georges Iland for fresh
water, whither we came on Munday following October 27, and hauing espied
where a spout of water came running downe: the pinnesse and long boate were
presently manned and sent vnder the conduct of Captaine Preston, and
Captaine Munson, by whom my Lord sent a letter to the Ilanders as before,
to grant vs leaue to water onely, and we would no further trouble them:
notwithstanding our men comming on shoare found some of the poore Ilanders,
which for feare of vs hid themselues amongst the rockes.

And on Wednesday following our boats returned with fresh water, whereof
they brought only sixe tunnes for the Victorie, alleaging they could get no
more, thinking (as it was supposed) that my Lord hauing no more prouision
of water and wine, but onely 12 tunnes, would not goe for the coast of
Spaine, but straight for the coast of England, as many of our men greatly
desired: notwithstanding my Lord was vnwilling so to doe, and was minded
the next day to haue taken in more water: but through roughnesse of the
seas and winde, and vnwillingnesse of his men it was not done. Yet his Hon.
purposed not to returne with so much prouision vnspent, and his voyage (as
he thought) not yet performed in such sort as mought giue some reasonable
contentment or satisfaction to himselfe and others.

Therefore because no more water could now conueniently be gotten, and being
vncertaine when it could be gotten, and the time of our staying aboord also
vncertaine, the matter being referred to the choyse of the whole companie,
whither they would tarrie longer, till wee might be more sufficiently
prouided of fresh water, or goe by the coast of Spaine for England, with
halfe so much allowance of drinke as before, they willingly agreed that
euery mease should bee allowed at one meale but halfe so much drinke as
they were accustomed (except them that were sicke or wounded) and so to goe
for England, taking the coast of Spaine in our way, to see if we could that
way make vp our voyage.

Vpon Saturday Octob. 31 we sent the Margaret (because she leaked much)
directly for England, together with the Prize of Brasile which we tooke at
S. Marie, and in them some of our hurt and wounded men or otherwise sicke
were sent home as they desired for England: but Captaine Monson was taken
out of the Megge into the Victorie.

So we held on our course for the coast of Spaine with a faire winde and a
large which before we seldome had. And vpon Twesday following being the 4
of Nouemb. we espied a saile right before vs, which we chased till about
three a clocke in the afternoone, at which time we ouertaking her, she
stroke sayle, and being demaunded who was her owner and from whence she
was, they answered, a Portugall, and from Pernanbucke in Brasile. She was a
ship of some 110 tuns burden, fraighted with 410 chestes of Sugar, and 50
Kintals, of Brasill-wood, euery Kintall contayning one hundred pound
weight: we tooke her in latitude nine and twentie degrees, about two
hundred leagues from Lisbone westwards: Captaine Preston was presently sent
vnto her, who brought the principall of her men aboord the Victorie, and
certaine of our men, mariners and souldiers were sent aboord her. The
Portugals of this Prize told vs that they saw another ship before them that
day about noone. Hauing therefore dispatched all things about the Prize
aforesaid and left our long boat with Captaine Dauis, taking his lesser
boat with vs, we made way after this other ship with all the sayles we
could beare, holding on our course due East, and giuing order to Captaine
Dauis his ship and the Prize that they should follow vs due East, and that
if they had sight of vs the morning following they should follow vs still:
if not they should goe for England.

The next morning we espied not the sayle which we chased,
and Captaine Dauis his ship and the Prize were behinde vs out of
sight: but the next Thursday the sixt of Nouember (being in
latitude 38 degrees 30 minutes, and about sixtie leagues from
Lisbone westwards) early in the morning Captaine Preston
descried a sayle some two or three leagues a head of vs, after
which we presently hastened our chase, and ouertooke her about
eight or nine of the clocke before noone. She came lately from
Saint Michaels roade, hauing beene before at Brasill loden with
Sugar and Brasile. Hauing sent our boat to them to bring some
of the chiefe of their men aboord the Victorie, in the meane time
whilest they were in comming to vs one out of the maine toppe
espied another saile a head some three or foure leagues from vs.
So immediately vpon the returne of our boate, hauing sent her
backe againe with some of our men aboord the prize, we pursued
speedily this new chase, with all the sayles we could packe on, and
about two a clocke in the afternoone ouertooke her: she had made
prouision to fight with vs, hauing hanged the sides of the shippe so
thicke with hides (wherewith especially she was loden) that musket
shot could not haue pearced them: but yer we had discharged
two great peeces of our Ordinance at her, she stroke sayle, and
approching neerer, we asking of whence they were, they answered
from the West-Indies, from Mexico, and Saint Iohn de Lowe
(truely called Vlhua.) This ship was of some three or foure
hundred tunnes, and had in her seuen hundred hides worth tenne
shillings a peece: sixe chests of Cochinell, euery chest houlding
one hundred pound weight, and euery pound worth sixe and
twenty shillings and eight pence, and certaine chests of Sugar
and China dishes, with some plate and siluer.

The Captaine of her was an Italian, and by his behauiour seemed to be a
graue, wise, and ciuill man: he had put an aduenture in this shippe fiue
and twentie thousand Duckats, Wee tooke him with certaine other of her
chiefest men (which were Spaniards) into the Victorie: and Captaine Lister
with so manie other of the chiefest of our Mariners, souldiers, and saylers
as were thought sufficient, to the number of 20. or thereabouts, were sent
into her. In the meane time (we staying) our other prizes which followed
after, came vp to vs. And nowe wee had our hands full and with ioy shaped
our course for England, for so it was thought meetest, hauing now so many
Portugals, Spaniards and Frenchmen amongst vs, that if we should haue taken
any more prizes afterwards, wee had not bene well able to haue manned them
without endangering our selues. So about six of the clocke in the
afternoone (when our other prize had ouertaken vs) wee set saile for
England. But our prizes not being able to beare vs company without sparing
them many of our sailes, which caused our ship to route and wallow, in such
sort that it was not onely very troublesome to vs, but, as it was thought,
would also haue put the maine Maste in danger of falling ouerboord: hauing
acquainted them with these inconueniences, we gaue them direction to keepe
their courses together, folowing vs, and so to come to Portsmouth. We tooke
this last prize in the latitude of 39. degrees, and about 46. leagues to
the Westwards from the Rocke.

She was one of those 16. ships which we saw going into the hauen at Angra
in Tercera, October 8. Some of the men that we tooke out of her tolde vs,
that whilest wee were plying vp and downe before that hauen, as before was
shewed, expecting the comming foorth of those shippes, three of the
greatest and best of them, at the appointment of the Gouernour of Tercera
were vnloden of their treasure and marchandize. And in euery of them were
put three hundred Souldiers, which were appointed to haue come to lay the
Victory aboord in the night, and take her: but when this should haue bene
done the Victory was gone out of their sight (...)"
 

jeff k

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Chagy said:
Ok!!! Marx was right on something in fact "La Madalena" was the Almiranta and "N.S. del Rosario was the Capitana of the TF fleet but in the out bound trip some vessels left San Lucar on March 1st and the rest left Cadiz on March 13 I have to see the return voyage...How ever there is no mention of "La Madalena" sinking....

Chagy... So I should change "Almiranta of the Flota de Nueva Espana" to "Almiranta of the Flota de Tierra Firme"?
 

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Chagy

Chagy

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Salvor6 said:
Chagy I have all the documents from Seville on the 1589 fleet. There were 14 ships that sank. The two big galleons Santa Catalina and Jesus Maria you mentioned also two more big galleons, the Capitana of Honduras owned by Toribio Descalante and the La Trinidad, Capt. Martin Monte Bernardo sank with 397,684 pesos in coins and 392,776 pesos in silver ingots.
Herbo Humphries searched for this fleet with his vessel the Beacon back in the 90's. He hired Paul Whitaker to do the remote sensing. They didn't find anything but Paul told me later that he thinks he found an anomaly that might be one of the nao's. I believe the fleet sank around the FL/GA boarder in deep water.
I also got some of the records from Simancas, Guerra y Marina legajo 254, expediente 199.

Pete,

Very interesting, have you translated the documents? I read somewhere about Humphries expedition in GA and the mag hit recorded by (Paul ?) Jim Whitaker. Do the documents provide a general area?
 

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Chagy

Chagy

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Jeff K said:
Chagy said:
Ok!!! Marx was right on something in fact "La Madalena" was the Almiranta and "N.S. del Rosario was the Capitana of the TF fleet but in the out bound trip some vessels left San Lucar on March 1st and the rest left Cadiz on March 13 I have to see the return voyage...How ever there is no mention of "La Madalena" sinking....

Chagy... So I should change "Almiranta of the Flota de Nueva Espana" to "Almiranta of the Flota de Tierra Firme"?

Actually Jeff the one that sank was the Almiranta of NE the “Jesus Maria” but if you want to go with Marx info. The “La Madalena” was Almiranta of TF…on the out bound voyage...her Captain was Antonio Jorge and the General was Diego de la Riviera.
 

jeff k

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Chagy... Bob didn't actually say "La Magdelana" was the Almiranta of the Flota de Nueva Espana in his new book. I assumed that from what he said in his other book.
 

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Chagy

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Jeff,

its an honest mistake anyone who has read both books would assume the same. I love Marx's books he just got the info mixed up thats all. The Almiranta of NE did sank but it was the "Jesus Maria"and The "Madalena" was the Almiranta of the TF....
 

ivan salis

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three smaller treasure fleets massed into 1 "grand fleet" of 100 vessels = 3 sets of almiranta's and capitina's so at the vey least 6 heavily laden "royal" treasure vessels in the grand fleet

much the way the "1715 fleet" was actually 2 fleets --one of 5 vessels under UBILLA (the senior overall grand commander of the jointed fleets) and a second of 6 vessels under ECHEVERZ -- total of 11 vessels plus the french vessel GRIFFION under DARE-- GRAND TOTAL 12 VESSELS --WITH 2 SETS OF "TREASURE" VESSELS -- thus 2 ALMIRANTA'S AND 2 CAPITINA'S -- one set for each fleet.
 

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Chagy

Chagy

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This is starting to get a bit confusing something doesn’t add up….

Alexandre,

The information you provided is very similar to the one on Claudio’s book I was able to find names of some of these vessels.

En 11 de septiembre Salimos de la Hauana. 32 nauios/
Los nueue com plata que son los Siguientes/

La capitana de Nueva España/
La capitana de juan de Uribe Apallua/
La nao de Pedro Allo que Uiene por Almiranta/ By Chagy “San Nicolas”
La francesa donde venia pedro ssanchez escudero/
La Nao de Juan Baptista espindola/
La nao de gaspar de Maya/ By Chagy “N.S. de la Concepción”
La nao de Alonso martin Marquez/ By Chagy “San Juan de la Madalena”
La nao de Diego de Narea la pequena/

Desembocamos en 5 dias y en 31 grados y médio/
despues de desembocados nos dio ocho dias de/
brisas naturales donde el segundo dia de la brisa/
se aparto Una nao de la florida y una galizabra/
y en 23 de septiembre la nao de malaça La/
dexamos en la mar Abierta por la proa, este/
dia se perdieron de nuestra compania cuatro naos que eran/
el Almiranta y La saluadora y el frances y Una/
fregata de la florida.

The difference between your information and Claudios is that Claudio does not list “San Nicolas” or la nao de Pedro Allo as Almiranta he does list the vessel but not as Almiranta. The on your information is says that 4 vessels were lost The Almiranta, La Salvadora, El Frances and a Fragata of Florida. On Claudios book he has the same 4 vessels but he gives a name for the Almiranta “Jesus Maria”

On “Seville et l’Atlantique” Chaunu writes: (25) The storm started as they entered the Bahamas Channel, 4 vessels were missing 2 were identified as “Jesus Maria” of 400 tons, Captain Francisco Salvago, owned by Domingo Sauli and ”Santa Catalina” of 350 tons, Captain Domingo Ianes Ome, owned by Fernando Ome.

He provides the list of vessels in the return voyage this list has the name of the vessel, type of vessel, Captain and tonnage and in some cases the owner. The list is also divided in fleets and it has an “A” or “C” for Almiranta and Capitana.

After the list he provides information and sources of each vessel and the ones listed as lost in the Bahamas Channel are the Jesus Maria” of 400 tons, Captain Francisco Salvago, owned by Domingo Sauli, the ”Santa Catalina” of 350 tons, Captain Domingo Ianes Ome, owned by Fernando Ome and the “N.S. de Gracias” of 300 tons, Captain and owner Gaspar Lorenzo. Source Ct. 2899, Lib. 1 fo 115 vto and Ct. 2949 relacion de Antonio perez, Capitan de la Esperanza, San Lucar, 22 noviembre 1589
 

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Luis: I've got about 200 pages of archival documents pertaining to this fleet. The original documents and the English translations, (translated by Belgian archaeologist Robert Stenuit) I'm offshore right now doing a shipwreck investigation but have access to my email.

Drop me a line when you get a chance.
 

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Galleon Hunter said:
Luis: I've got about 200 pages of archival documents pertaining to this fleet. The original documents and the English translations, (translated by Belgian archaeologist Robert Stenuit) I'm offshore right now doing a shipwreck investigation but have access to my email.

Drop me a line when you get a chance.

Thank you Rob, looking forward....
 

Salvor6

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Yes Luis, I have the translations. I was going to post a letter from Thomas de Uribe Apallua describing the vessels that survived along with the translation but my scanner took a dump. Its from Contratacion 5108, manuscript 5, letter 11, Dec. 17, 1589. You are right, its JIM Whitaker. I had him mixed up with someone else.
Because of the storm they couldn't get an accurate fix but the area is believed to be around 30 deg. latitude.
 

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Chagy

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Thanks Buddy,

The correct name is: Almirante de la Armada Juan de Uribe Apallua... I wonder why no one else has tried to find these wrecks....
 

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