Which 1715 fleet ships have not found yet?

[Sand Digger]

Anyone have the names of these?

 

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[wreckdiver1715]

That would be the…

Nuestra Senora de la Concepcion
El Senor San Miguel
La Olandesa aka San Miguel
El Cievro aka La Galleria
Maria Galante

And which of these had registered treasure?

 

[Jimi D Pirate]

The "Nustra Senora de la Concepcion" for sure! She is still out there waiting

 

[Chagy]

That would be the…

Nuestra Senora de la Concepcion
El Senor San Miguel
La Olandesa aka San Miguel
El Cievro aka La Galleria
Maria Galante

And which of these had registered treasure?

I have a book from Frogfoot Weller and a map from London that mark the Holandesa wreck just north fron the Ft. Inlet. is this the same wreck/

Best,

Chagy...........

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Jimi, why do I think that you may also be looking for this elusive treasure ship? Nuestra Senora de la Concepcion did indeed have treasure aboard when she went down on the southern shoal of Cape Canaveral.

Chagy, you are also correct, the La Olandesa aka San Miguel was a Dutch ship captured the year before the hurricane off of Cartagena, and is believed to be some place between Rio Mar and Sandy Point. Frogfoot is probably the leading authority on anything to do with the 1715 fleet, and his boys are still working the wreck sites today.

 

[mariner]

WD1715,

Are the cargoes of these remaining wrecks known, and are they described in any publication?

Mariner

 

[mad4wrecks]

Remember that while some of the ships did not have registered treasure, all of the ships had lots of unregistered treasure (contraband). The "annual" fleet had not sailed for 3 years. Spain was in dire financial straits. There were mountains of chests and cases piled up in Havana, for royalty, noblemen, the Catholic church, merchants, private individuals. Above and below decks, the ships were packed full. Items were hidden down in the ballast.
If I am correct, I think WD1715 can confirm this, Ubilla had his own personal ship (the Maria Galante?) to carry his wealth back, which has never been found.

I am working with a company called HRD inc. and we strongly feel (and the evidence supports) we have one of the missing 1715 vessels in our lease area off Vero Beach. At this point, I wouldn't hazard a guess as to which one.

Keep in mind too, there is still some confusion about the total number of ships that left Havana in the 1715 fleet. Some say 11. Some say 12. There are accounts of 14 ships. Because the Spanish gave their ships 2 names, and I think 2 of the ships had the same name, it is understandable why there is so much mystery.

The finds made last year by Heartland Treasure Quest off Brevard County may be one of the 1715 wrecks. If so, my guess would be the Conception. It is close enough to the Cape to be described as "lost off the shoals south of the Cape."

 

[mariner]

gdf,

Good luck with your search. It must be very exciting. One of the reasons for my question about the cargoes is to find out whether any of them carried a substantial amount of emeralds.

Mariner

 

[mad4wrecks]

Any ship in Echeverez's Tierra Firma fleet could be expected to contain emeralds. It is well known that the transporting of contraband was a common occurrence. So one would expect much in the way of smuggled materials on these wrecks - quite likely emeralds would be part of the unofficial goods since one of the main ports of call was Cartegenia in Columbia, the main depot for these gems.

One of Bob Weller's books mentions a number of raw, uncut emeralds coming off the Urca de Lima back in the late 70's or early 80's, (when it was legal to salvage that particular wreck)

Taffi Fisher-Abt has mentioned on a number of occassions that there are a billion dollars worth of emeralds yet to be found on the 1715 fleet.

Anybody out there working on an emerald detector?

 

[Maverick]

Geeze, are there any Spanish shipwrecks that DON'T have a claim or lease on them? Or any other shipwreck for that matter? It seems like everytime a wreck is mentioned, it has someone's claim already staked out all over the thing.

 

[mariner]

gdf,

Thanks for the quote from Tammi Fisher. She is more likely than most to have access to that kind of information. I think I will contact here and ask her to explain the basis, if she would. I assume she can be contacted via the Fisher web site.

Mariner

 

[Chagy]

WD1715,

Are the cargoes of these remaining wrecks known, and are they described in any publication?

Mariner

Yes you could find them in Shipwrecks of Western Hemisphere by Robert Marx

Best,

Chagy.........

 

[Chagy]

Was Robert Marx ever wrong ? Did he bend the truth a little in order to fill his books ? Was he right in Banka Strait ? Did he find the Flor do Mar ? Was Tony Wells always right ? Was John Potter always right ? Not that they were wilfully missleading but you know we all have to make a living ! So now you answer your own question . Cornelius

Cornelius,

The man asked where can I find the information? I guess the only person who knows the cargo on a vessel is the person who loaded the vessel. Not even in the archives you will find the correct cargo. I will reserve my opinion on these people that you mention.

Best,

Chagy.........

 

[mad4wrecks]

The figure that I quoted from Taffi was, of course, just an estimate (her estimate). I think most people here understood that. But some of you are quite literal! The point is, many folks believe there are lots of emeralds to be found from the 1715 fleet shipwrecks.

To paraphrase from Bob Weller's book 'Sunken Treasure on Florida Reefs':

"In 1983, while working 100 feet offshore, Frank Allen's group located a large conglomerate that when broken apart, yielded 43 uncut emeralds. The next year, Jim Hendricks of Titan Ocean Sytems worked the same inshore area and recovered a few silver coins along with a pile of conglomerates. The conglomerates were stored in a trash can filled with water in an unlocked garage from August until December. With the state of Florida division scheduled for February 1985, they decided to clean all the conglomerates. You can imagine the excitement when they broke apart one of the more interesting conglomerates and out poured 3,030 uncut emeralds! In another conglomerate were 25 gold coins."

There is a dearth of archival information about the 1715 fleet and none of it mentions these emeralds.

So, as for the manifests, it ain't all documented. For another example (but a good one) there is absolutely no mention anywhere of loose emeralds aboard the Atocha, but Mel always believed there were. Maybe he read something other than an official manifest in the archives? The point is, thousands of emeralds have been found on the Atocha. The divers are still out there to this day vacuuming them up. Millions of dollars worth so far.

There are people like Cornelius that do the research first in an attempt to locate an area to search for a particular shipwreck. That is fantastic and works for him. Then there are guys like me that just get out there and start searching and then do the research on the back end, once we find something. (And I almost always find something)

Both methods work.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Mariner, yes! The official manifests are in the archives at Seville Spain, and in Havana Cuba. However, copies have been made by many a researcher over the years. In some instances parts of the manifest have been published at least in part by many of the authors on the subject. Part of the problem that exist with the 1715 fleet, and Tom alluded to it in his post is that there has always been much confusion about the fleets. In addition to confusion, as Cornelius mentions; there is also an element of disinformation by some of the authors that is designed to confuse the truth in order to keep the competition at bay. Most of the books and authors mentiond, were at the time, actively involved in the search for the treasures of the 1715 fleet.
Tom refers to the “Maria Galante”; a small, single masted Frigatilla built in Cuba, which was purchased by General Ubilla in Havana a short time before the fleet set sail. The wealth that Tom referred to was a cargo hold full of Tobacco (according to the manifest), a cash crop that would have made the General a very wealthy man, had he lived to get it to Spain. Also remember that General Ubilla was not sailing on this ship, and there are no official records stating that any treasure was aboard this vessel. Was there treasure aboard this ship? I will let you know as soon as I find her.
Maverick, there are no claims placed on a shipwreck until it is found. No one will divulge the find publicly until he secures the claim. That’s just the way it works.

 

[aquanut]

Wreckdiver, while searching at Waldon (Walton?) Rocks south of the Nieves site, I reached under the rocks and pulled out a handfull of mush that the guys in Mel Fisher's museum in Sebastion said was old tobacco. Interesting
Aquanut

 

[peg legged]

I love this forum cause there is tons of valuable information but you must read between the lines.
Not to long ago I recovered a LARGE amount of silver coins. The coins are dated 1722 and the mint is Madrid Spain HOWEVER here is the problem that makes no sense. These coins are Reale IV,s and there is not record of this coins being minted in 1722. They all have the Shield. I know that in 1723 the coins had the Pillars and Wave design but what happened in 1722 is anyones guess. These coins are also COBBED.
I have had a few assayed and have found that they contain a much higher silver content and they have a trace of gold.
Can anyone shed some light of these coins?
Until I dig a little deeper a photo will not be possible but when things get a little more clear THEN I will provide some photos. ALSO there were a number of Escudo II gold coins from 1556.
Could this have been someones private stash and where did they come from and where were they going and why did they have a M mint mark and cobbed?
QUESTIONS CREATE MORE QUESTIONS. It never seems to end.
Thanks for your response.
Peg Leg

 

[mad4wrecks]

Peg Legged, just offhand, I don't recall any New World mint producing gold coins as early as 1556. The M mint mark is of course for Mexico City and they just started minting silver coins there 20 years earlier! (the first mint in the Americas)

I would contact the expert, Daniel Sedwick, at www.sedwickcoins.com

 

[mad4wrecks]

Yes Doc, gold coins could have been minted in Spain at that time, BUT NOT WITH AN M MINT MARK. (didn't mean to yell)

Peg Legged wrote:
ALSO there were a number of Escudo II gold coins from 1556. Could this have been someones private stash and where did they come from and where were they going and why did they have a M mint mark and cobbed?

 

[peg legged]

I have been looking at so many coins that I have gone brain dead and blind at the same time. Went back to the Bank and took another look. The Gold coins have a large G on the left side of the shield and on the right there is a small o and below this is a large D then there is the II.
At the top there is a Crown with a cross in the crown.. Of course my paperwork is not complete. There are no names or dates. The coins are about .90 inches across on average. The average assay is between 22.2 and 22.7% gold.
Thanks for your response.
Peg Leg