the little details mean a lot when doing 1715 fleet "research"

[ivan salis]

most folks knnow that a simlpe east /west translation error cost mel fisher years of looking in the wrong area for the atocha * and thay once the error was found and "fixed" that it was found rather qiuckly afterwards ;

well folks -- i think another fine exsample might be this is * in salmon's letter to the king of spain --he was speaking of 2 "missing" vessels * -- it said -- (according to the translated account of the 1715 researchers ) of the two "missing" "gallones" --(evechez's fleet was known as the gallones de terria firme) there is little doubt they sank on the high seas, as wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the coast north of st augustine . ---

now if person speaks spanish - they know how its written as well -- la casa rojo -- straight word for word swap translation --the house red -- but to speak it in english its "the red house" note the postion swap of the "subject" noun.

using that same knowledge --- a word swapped translation of -- "found on the coast north of st augustine" --when properly translated would be --- wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the NORTH COAST OF ST AUGUSTINE -- thus close to st augustine on the beaches to the north should be shore wreckage of a 1715 era vessel or two

[Attila]

Interesting reading Ivan. I believe you are on to something.

I have come across an old map form the early 1700's that shows a possible 1715 wreck south of St. Augustine.

It would be nice to be able to compile everything in sift through the information. I am not a sea goer though. My treasure is on land. But my son is trying to get me to focus on ships.

Attila

[mad4wrecks]

You'd think a shipwreck that close to St Augustine would have generated quite a bit of documentation and left a paper trail at least as long as the other 1715 wrecks. No survivor accounts. No salvage accounts. No follow-up of any kind. Why do you think that is Ivan?

[Attila]

Here is the map I mentioned. I am sure you guys have seen this one.
It is from Von Keulen in 1728. The family is famous for nautical charts.

Look right below St. Augustine. The text is Dutch, "i think"
It says:
Here is the ?? Fleet ?? A 1715

[cornelis 816]

Atilla . I am from Holland and quite familiar with the van Keulen maps . I did not discover any mention of wrecks on your map . Cornelius

[Attila]

You are right Cornelis.

I am note sure what it says, It does say something about 1715. Your help would be appreciated.

[cornelis 816]

Atilla send me a copy of the map . My e-mail no is alphaor@versatel.nl . Regards Cornelius

[ivan salis]

the map states in dutch --(HIER IS DE SILVRE VLOOT GEBLEVEN Ao 1715 )--- IN ENGLISH IT MEANS --- here is the silver fleet remains Ao (ano dao -- year of our lord ) 1715 --look below the word MOSQUITES JUST BELOW ST AUGUSTINE * -- 1728 MAP -Gerard Van Keulen (JUST 13 YEARS AFTER THE EVENT OCCURED.)


note this is near st augustine -- so clearly its not meaning the main 1715 wreck area to the south below the cape -- it must be refering to the wreckage area that salmon said in his letter to the king sept 20 ,1715 "wreckage of a large vessel or vessels washed up debris on the NORTH COAST OF ST AUGUSTINE "* a north bound coastal running hurricane if it sank vessels just below st augustine could have easily carried debris up towards st augustine depositing it on the northern shore area.

[Attila]

Like I said I think you are on to something.

Look North of Sebastien Inlet.

Also if you have time visit the Mclarty Museum.
They have an interesting display of Salmon writing a letter.
There's a big clue there if you pay attention.

[capthawk]

speaking of maps hate to add an ebay link but I bought some very reasonable good resolution cds from
EURISKOdata Educational CD's - including a nice copy of Romans map of Florida which is not in the Fl reprint of his book
a lot of stuff available with enough searching and downloads but the Fl maps are good and saves a lot of time

Bonnie

[ivan salis]

i posted the important part in my post above --cats out of the bag --now --meow

[capthawk]

Ivan,

doesn't matter if cat's out of the bag - needs to be in the water hunting meow

[ivan salis]

yes but my information is my trading stock --once i tell folks what i know * they tend to not need me anymore -- however this just the tip of the iceburg info wize -- i got lots and lots more "valuible info"at my finger tips and in my mind --but thats going to cost --$$$$

this is the "free sample" so folks will understand --that i do know what I'm doing.

[Attila]

speaking of maps hate to add an ebay link but I bought some very reasonable good resolution cds from
EURISKOdata Educational CD's - including a nice copy of Romans map of Florida which is not in the Fl reprint of his book
a lot of stuff available with enough searching and downloads but the Fl maps are good and saves a lot of time

Bonnie

Hey Bonnie,

I would like to have the link. I collect Antique Maps.
Mostly of Europe, but like I said my son has been getting me interested in Florida wrecks.

Attila

[ivan salis]

knowledge is the key to riches in the treasure salvage game - the right old maps and archive documents are often worth many times their weight in gold and silver.

[capthawk]

attila -

Link: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/_sn.html?_nkw=euriskodata

if the link doesn't work search euriskodata on ebay stores

[Attila]

Thanks Bonnie,

Great Store....I'm going to blow some money.

[cornelis 816]

Research always pays , but you have to be careful where you get it . The map of van Keulen shows you a spot where he thinks the treasure fleet was lost . Why he placed the fleet just North of Cape Canaveral is an enigma . It can be that he heard about the loss of the fleet from seamen that were part in the wrecking . A map maker had his ears open all the time to pick up information that could come in handy to incorporate in his maps . So ... van Keulen should have said , somewhere here the 1715 fleet was lost . ( we know that the fleet was lost at Palmar ) . When you are going to use maps in your research you have to be careful and not put all your faith in them . The information should be backed by other sources . Maybe ships journals or just stories out of that time . If you remember that Bob Marx pinpointed the Flor do Mar because he read the location on an old map , he made a big mistake . He should have read here too ,, somewhere here the Flor do Mar sank was wrecked ,, . But NO , he fell for information that he thought was right because the map told him so . BIG MISTAKE as he found out . Not enough secondary information to back the information on the map . I come to the conclusion that the info on the map of van Keulen is of no value for treasure hunters . Now , I believe that some of the ships may have made to the North of San Augustin and were wrecked there , but there is no map ( yet ) that will tell us so . We may have to look for that in the written history in San Augustin itself . Cornelius

[Vox veritas]

Research always pays , but you have to be careful where you get it . The map of van Keulen shows you a spot where he thinks the treasure fleet was lost . Why he placed the fleet just North of Cape Canaveral is an enigma . It can be that he heard about the loss of the fleet from seamen that were part in the wrecking . A map maker had his ears open all the time to pick up information that could come in handy to incorporate in his maps . So ... van Keulen should have said , somewhere here the 1715 fleet was lost . ( we know that the fleet was lost at Palmar ) . When you are going to use maps in your research you have to be careful and not put all your faith in them . The information should be backed by other sources . Maybe ships journals or just stories out of that time . If you remember that Bob Marx pinpointed the Flor do Mar because he read the location on an old map , he made a big mistake . He should have read here too ,, somewhere here the Flor do Mar sank was wrecked ,, . But NO , he fell for information that he thought was right because the map told him so . BIG MISTAKE as he found out . Not enough secondary information to back the information on the map . I come to the conclusion that the info on the map of van Keulen is of no value for treasure hunters . Now , I believe that some of the ships may have made to the North of San Augustin and were wrecked there , but there is no map ( yet ) that will tell us so . We may have to look for that in the written history in San Augustin itself . Cornelius

Cornelius,
I agree with you !! It is always necessary to check again and again the data and not rely on a map.
VV

[cornelis 816]

Research and maps . Here is a sample of how it could be done . ( just the first steps though ! ) . The VOC ship ,, Keizerin ,, was noted in the lists of ships being wrecked . Looking through the archives I read the following ,, Keizerin , wrecked in 1637 in the Bay Pandoran , on the Champa oast . Coming from Taiwan . Loaded with porcelain and gold objects . ,, When I checked the van Keulen maps I came up with the following pinpoint of the wreck . Cornelius