1715 fleet question

[Attila]

Hey guys,

I know you all have done a lot of research on the 1715 fleet.
I was wondering if anyone had a complete list of ships, with the captains names or what ever names you may have.

Attila

 

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[ivan salis]

i can help you out -call me

 

[ivan salis]

ok first off there was 12 vessels in total in the original "combined" 1715 fleet when it left havana cuba ( this is counting the french vessel griffion as part of the fleet ) --there was 11 total spanish vessels * 5 vessels in Ubilla's fleet and 6 in Echeverz's fleet . ***** the number of vessels in the fleet is answered by salmons letter to the king --in which he says " the number of vessels lost is nine with 2 gallones missing " that adds up to 11 vessels -- BTW the term "gallones" was used since he was refering to ships from Echeverz's fleet -- the "gallones de tierra firme fleet " as it was known as at the time.

the french vessel GRIFFON was the sole survivor of the fleet -- she before the main storm hit broke ranks with the fleet and took out on a more northerly tack leaving the heavly overloaded spanish vessels behind once she got to the north a fair bit she went due east to brest ,france --she lost all track of the rest of the fleet and knew nothing of what happened to them.

according to the pilot major of the fleet's accounting in havana ,cuba during the investagation after the wrecks occured --he reported that the griffion left the main fleet first --then a bit later on 3 of the vessels of Echeverz fleet also broke away from the fleet as well headed on a more northeerly tack similar to that of the griffon -- the 3 vessels that left the main group wrere the Concepcion , the tobbacco hauling NAO San Miguel * and the french prize vessel --aka "El Ciervo"

the main "treasure" fleet--now 8 vessels in total-- stayed together --all 5 of Ubilla's vessels and the 2 major treasure vessels of Echeverz plus the dutch prize vessel known by many names ( "San Miguel: as well as "Senor de la popa " and Olandesa ( dutch in spanish) -- we know that the dutch prize vessel was at the main fleet wreck area --since Echeverz writes in one of his letters "from the real (shelter)of the Olandesa"--- the upper deck works of the dutch vessel washed ashore fairly intact as it hit bottom very close to shore due to it very small size and thus its very shallow draft and Echeverz used its deck works as a shelter during the salvage ops

as overall commander in cheif *** Ubilla did not have allowed his fleet to scatter nor would he allow any of the the main treasure vessels of the "combined" fleet to scatter or lose sight of one another -- so all 4 of the "main" royal treasure vessels 2 in Ubilla's fleet and 2 in Echeverz fleet would have been together as much as possible -- Echeverz would have kept one small vessel with him from his fleet as his personal "messenger" type vessel --thus the dutch prize San Miguel was with him .

now the 3 other vessels of Echeverz's fleet since they were not carrying royal treasure -- were basically Echeverz's to do as he pleased with so he cut them loose from the fleet to try and allow them toget away by running northward in hopes they would survive the storm -- they left roughly a day before the main force of the storm hit the remaining 8 vessel "main " fleet .

of the 3 missing vessels -- the vessel Concepcion -- had 4 crew members float ashore at the cape on a hatch cover after floating for a couple days . that is why the salmon says -in his sept 20th 1715 letter to the king of spain ----9 vessels are lost --(he know of the concepcion's loss due to the 4 survivors being found ) and 2 "missing" --but he had no "solid" word on the other 2 vessels(no survivors to tell what and where) --- the tabbacco vessel San Miguel nor the French prize vessel "El Ciervo"-- however he believed them to have sank near st augustine since he said "fragments of a large vessel or vessels was found on the NORTH COAST OF ST AUGUSTINE "

 

[Salvor6]

Atilla we have gone thru this before. If you scroll back you will find a post with the names of all the 1715 fleet wrecks and where the known wrecks are at right now.

 

[MyLuckyDay]

Atilla we have gone thru this before. If you scroll back you will find a post with the names of all the 1715 fleet wrecks and where the known wrecks are at right now.

Very true. This forum has 19 pages of great stuff.... Very addicting reading.

But it is also awesome to get another post like the one above. Hearing different folks tell the story and include one more detail that I didn't see before.

So it is only bandwidth.... Instead of going back to the same chick all the time, it is like enjoying her twin sisters with different beauty marks! I like it!

 

[Attila]

I geuss, I need to clarify.

I seen a lot of the names of the ships.

But I'm looking for a list of captains with their ships.
Which may be here, I just haven't come across it.

IE:
Ship : Griffon
Captain : ?

Is it possible listed in a book you all know about?

So you undrstand. My daughter is in college. She has to submit two pages a week of Historical Fiction. Which means a fictional story based on true events and charactors.

She was going to write a daily journal as one of the women survivors. I'm try to find her real names of people that were on the boats, if anyone has that info.

Not that important, just trying to find out what I can about the people. I figured she could use some of the captains names, and then make up their wives names.

 

[ivan salis]

I have a "special" book given to me by taffi fisher ( not that common or easy to get one of these)-- as a present for some "information" I told her , its a copy of the "original" research done by her fathers group --from the micro film from the spanish archives . (a nice lil something to have. --LOL)

needless to say --with the fisher family selling off their intersest in the 1715 sites --this data is not going to be easily availble to folks in the future I would think.

not that it really matters but DARE was the capt of the GRIFFON --since cthe GRIFFON survived by going due north for a bit and then turned due east returning to brest ,france --- once she broke away from the fleet, she lost all contact with them and thus knew nothing of what happened to them -- so basically shipwreck info wize "the GRIFFON" is basically a "non factor" -- all that can be really be gained off her --info wize-- is her northerly course that she took when leaving the 1715 fleet and the rough area she was at when she did so location wize when she "tacked" to the north -- as did the other 3 vessels a bit later on that left Echeverz's fleet according to the pilot major of the fleets account that he told to the investigators in havana , cuba. *

 

[Salvor6]

All you have to do is buy the book "Search for the 1715Fleet" by Carl Claussen and Robert Burgess. It not only tells the entire story of the wrecking but it has the names of each vessel, the captains name, the owner of the vessel and a cargo manifest of each ship.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

the GRIFFON

Grifon -Capitaine Antoine Dare

Did she really survive or just not sink with any of the other ships?

 

[FISHEYE]

The vessel Concepcion is believed to be wrecked on the south side of the cape.The real 8 guys salvaged it back in the 60's.You should have seen the artifacts they found.Nothing like what has ever been found on the rest of the 1715 fleet wrecks.I have some of the original photos,if i have time i will scan them.

 

[ivan salis]

the griffon wisely commanded by capt dare --- survived and returned to brest, france -- the reason she survived is she was much lighter loaded than the spanish vessels and thus she was must faster than the rest of the fleet vessels * so she was able to break away from the main treasure fleet -- she broke away about a day and half to 2 days before the main storm hit the fleet -- she took up a much differant course running north rapidly thus getting ahead of the oncoming storm --once she got a fair bit to the north ( thus above the oncoming storm ) she then turned due east and went rapidly toward brest , france ( by the time the storm that was coming up the coastline got up by where the griffon would have been she was already well to east off the coastline area --thus the coast hugging storm was well "behind" her by the time it got up to where she turned east at -- thus main effect of the storm missed her totally --which is why she survived ) -- the other 3 vessels that went northward sadly stayed too close to the shoreline and were overtaken one after another by the storm as it ran up the coastline trapping them between the storm and the shoreline --the storm of course pushed them into the shallows and reef areas wrecking them .-- only the Concepcion had any survivors --4 men who floated upon a hatchcover --recovered near the cape area.

 

[Attila]

Thanks,

I'll have her check the library for the book.

Attila

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Just out of curiosity can you point me to research showing the Grifon made it to France?

Ok so let us summarize.
12 ships
The Grifon – sailed away.
11 “fleet ships”
3 wrecked near Cape or St Augustine.

8 ships left….

7 modern wreck sites maybe 6 maybe 5…

1, 2 or 3 shipwrecks “missing” unaccounted for in the above tally.

Why?…
7, 6 or 5 current/modern wreck sites.
Depending on what one believes to be an individual wreck or the scattered remains of the same wreck we could have as much as 3 missing “unaccounted” for wrecks.

“Urca De Lima” aka Wedge Wreck = 1 +

Modern wreck sites for the Fisher/Brisben leases.
Cabin, Anchor, Corrigan’s, Rio Mar, Sandy Point, Douglas Beach = 7
*minus
Some believe that the Anchor wreck site is part of the Cabin wreck =6
* minus
Some believe Rio Mar is part of Sandy Point = 5

So multiple combinations of belief in the above leaves us with anywhere from 1 to 3 missing/unaccounted for shipwrecks.

Is this correct?

 

[MyLuckyDay]

So multiple combinations of belief in the above leaves us with anywhere from 1 to 3 missing/unaccounted for shipwrecks.

Is this correct?

I believe (hope) so....

 

[ivan salis]

my ideals on the matter is thus ----

THE FRENCH VESSEL - GRIFFON - the record shows that she got away and went to brest france

THE BULK OF THE MAIN 1715 FLEET-- 8 VESSELS ARE THE --- 8 wrecks near the ""known" 1715 fleet werck sites are as follows ( all 5 of Ubilla's fleet plus the 2 main treasure vessels of of Echeverz's fleet and the dutch prize vessel SAN MIGUEL / Olandesa out of of Echeverz's fleet )

THAT LEAVES THE 3 VESELS THAT ACCORDING TOTHE PILOT MAJOR OF THE FLEETS ACCOUNTING SAILED " ON A MORE NORTHLY TACK"

of the 3 the possible general area of the Concepcion ( NOTE --the Concepcion was reported to be carrying some money and valuible goods according to her manifest) THE CONCEPCION is thought to have been lost around the cape area due to the 4 survivors found floating on a hatch cover at the cape. (she is the 9th known for sure to be sunk vessel --thus salmon's report stating 9 vessels are lost with 2 missing -- the 2 missing vessels were the Nao San Miguel (main cargo reported as being tobbacco )--and the french prize vessel "El Ciervo" (main reported cargo reported as dye wopd ) salmon says that there is little doubt that they sank upon the high seas (in a area too deep for them to salvage basically) because fragments of a large vessel or vessels washed up on the NORTH COAST OF ST AUGUSTINE *

TRANSLATED THIS 1728 MAP SAYS IN DUTCH --HERE IS THE SILVER FLEET REMAINDER OF ( Ao =THE YEAR OF OUR LORD) 1715 ---the dutch and others as well were well known to "fish" at 1715 fleet wrecksites using grappel hooks on ropes to try and snag chest full of silver

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Then do you agree we have 1-3 "missing/unaccounted" wrecks out of those 8?

 

[ivan salis]

count up the wreck sites at the 1715 known sites comes up to 8 right on the nose

# 1 wedge site * urca de lima

#2 cabin

#3 anchor

#4 corrigans

#5 rio mar

#6 sandy point

#7 douglas beach

#8 Olandesa / dutch prize --washed ashore *( Echeverz wrote in a letter during the salvage ops ---from the real (shelter) of the Olandesa (holland / dutch in spanish) ---it was very small vessel -- so its highly possible it carried little to no ballast stones -- she very well might have been using only her cargo as "ballast" -- she being so small and light in draft most likely hit bottom in very shallow water and her main deck sheared away from her hull and surfed into shore like a gaint surf board --the wreckage was used during the salvage ops for shelter.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Ok so I was missing something.

 

[Red_desert]

Here is the story as told on the Fisher's history page 1715 Fleet...
http://www.melfisher.com/SalvageOperations/1715Ops/1715history.asp

This is a portion of a story form, good to inspire the imagination


By noon, on July 29, the fleet was almost becalmed. The sea was running a heavy and strangely silent swell but there was no wind. The clouds were the merest wisps of cirrus way down on the starboard beam, and even the sea birds, which usually swarmed around the ships a mere twenty miles from shore, had vanished. The swell grew stronger, cargo began to roll about, and de Chaves sent men below to secure it. The night passed slowly, the rolling of the ships creating distrust and apprehension among all hands.

The next morning - it was Wednesday and they had been a week at sea -a cheerless one. The sun never seemed to rise at all, "but stay throughout that day as though behind a muslin cloud". By noon the ships of the armada were called to close station; visibility had become so bad that Ubilla signaled that each ship’s poop lantern was to be lit to guide each other. In the afternoon it grew quite dark, the wind came again, first from the southeast, then moving round slowly until at nightfall it was gusting out of the east-north-east at up to 70 knots. The waves rose savagely, the water crashing down on decks, carrying away deck cargo, spars, and cordage. "It was so violent," the chaplain recalled, "that the water flew in the air like arrows, doing injury to those it hit, and seamen who had ventured much said they had never seen the like before."

 

[stevemc]

The #8 Olandesa, might be the salvage vessel that there is no ballast, North of Sebastian Inlet. There have been a bunch of 1/2s and 2s found near the now destroyed Chucks Steak House resturant, North of Sebastian Inlet, and even farther North up the beach. Not many, but every once in a while one is found. They assumed it was a salvage vessel, as there is nothing to find on the reef, and there have been a few finds, mainly on the beach here. They assumed it wrecked on the beach. The story of the cabin being used for cover could be this. I remember reading this, but cant remember which ships cabin it was.