A strange coin found by Haitian fisherman on a beach - what is it?

[Bobadilla]

Hi everybody,

Great news concerning the "mystery coin"!

Today afternoon my friend returned from Haiti and guess what....? He managed not only locate his fisherman but he also managed to buy the coin from him! I am green with envy...... I had it shortly even in my hands. We made some photos of edges of this coin/medallion and I am posting these photos here below the text. He told me he had went to see a jeweller and he was told that the mass of silver around the turtle and the turtle itself show damages of time that would exceed at least 100 years being in water or sand. If it is truth, it would mean that the coin could not be made as a promotional piece for some resort in the 60´s of the last century. The jeweller says that the turtle was casted to the reverse of the coin (original piece of eight, by the way) very long time ago. Look at these photos by yourselves and let me know what you think now!

Regards,
Lobo

 

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[TheRandyMan]

Wonderful Pictures!! It is fantastic that your friend found the fisherman again and was able to obtain it. Did he get any more information as to where it was initially found? Any other details of any kind?

I have no idea why this piece fascinates me so much...lol...everything on it is just screaming to me "treasure map". The bases of the "T"s, shape and directions, the shapes of the ends of the turtles legs, the very obvious "pit" on the upper left quadrant...so much more.

If the jeweler is right, this just might be something special...

 

[rgecy]

Lobo,

Not saying that the jeweler is incorrect, but I know of no way to accurately gauge the ware on a coin that would tell you its been in the water 40 years, 140 years or 340 years, especially after its been cleaned. The variables that could affect a coin in shore zone would certainly be drastically more than a coin that is in 30 feet of water. And we certainly know that coins and artifacts can be aged to give the appearanced of being old!

In picture #3 from above I also see something that raises my suspicion on the right hand side of the rim of the coin. Maybe its just me, but I would be interested to see what others make of this image as well.

After the finding of the exact logo from the Resort, I would have said the case was just about closed. I would do some more research on the resort and try to contact someone who may have some answers about the coin or logo. It is just too much of a match to be a coincidence.

Robert

 

[stevemc]

Robert, do you mean what looks like casting flash? It does look like it was cast with a 2 piece mold at that edge. Maybe the turtle, which is obviously cast, has some extra silver there, and it was ground down. Plus with the finding of the resort's tTt symbol, I would think it was modern, but it is a nice item nonetheless. Maybe it had a bezel holding the coin, which is so popular these days. It does not harm the coin. And about the age, I agree that it cannot be figured, once the coin has been cleaned. The grain of sand could become lodged there in a week. Coralline grows fast ( I know none is on it,) but I have seen item that were dated/aged just by tiny bits of coralline on an item. It could have been put in a saltwater aquarium and had coralline grow on it. Or just left on a reef and had this. It is very hard to judge a worked/faked/etc, coins age, even if it did have some growth on it. If that coin was lost a year before, it would look just like as if it was there for 100 years. If in certain conditions. It could have coralline and even coral, it could have some wear, it could have some oxidation. I too am not sold on the jewelers findings, but it is still a nice item.

 

[Bobadilla]

Hi Robert and SteveMC,

I must admit that you are right about the determination of age of the coin. I just wrote in the state of high entusiasm what I was told by my friend about the statement of his jeweller. Thinking with "cold head", the possibility is, that somebody would have lost his medaillon of The Third Turtle Club in the ocean, probably on vacation in Tortuga Island. The logo is no doubt identical. Anyway, I will try to find the original owners of the Club just to find out where they took the design from.
Thanks to all of you for your help!

Regards,
Lobo

 

[Digger54]

Hi Robert and SteveMC,

Anyway, I will try to find the original owners of the Club just to find out where they took the design from.

Regards,
Lobo

I think it would be totally cool if the club took their design from a treasure coin found by a Haitian fisherman.

 

[Bobadilla]

Exactly!!
I am hoping in the remote corner of my soul that it was like that.....!

 

[ivan salis]

well we know the coin if real came from the mexico mint due to the crosses having balls in their ends * this design was only used by the mexico mint *-- by looking a few other things --I think its a 1598 to 1617 era mexico mint 8 reale -- cross with a scallopped type edge around it , a ring of hash mark type lines on it as well --the other side would have had a "sheild" design of philip III (its one or a copy of one) that was mated with the turtle at some later time .

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Ahoy!

What certainly appears to be this coin is up for sale on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Original-silver...937?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f09a36191

It was previously offered with a minimum bid of $950 and no takers. It's been reduced to a minimum bid of $750.

Personally, for a variety of reasons I find the idea this is some sort of pirate treasure map to be far-fetched. I certainly mean no disrespect to the owner(s) by saying that.

Please let me add I do not know these people, and I certainly have no interest in the sale of this artifact.

I pass along the news that it's for sale for the benefit of anyone who is interested in this interesting find.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[TheRandyMan]

Well, I guess we can see what the owner of the coin believes it to be at this point...feebay fodder!

 

[Digger54]

Ahoy!

What certainly appears to be this coin is up for sale on eBay.

Identical pit marks from the earlier pictures. If not the same, from the same mold.

 

[Darren in NC]

He also mentions the grain of sand (he spells it 'grane' on ebay) below the head, so I think it's the same one.

 

[Bobadilla]

Hi everybody,

To clear the doubts about the "strange coin", there is no one mold producing these coins, it is only one original coin which is owned by a friend of mine and that I was posting here on the Treasurenet. My friend decided to offer this coin/medallion for sale on eBay because he needs money. I wanted to buy this coin, I badly wanted to have it, but I cannot afford to pay USD 750.00 he asks for it as a minimum. He still believes that it could be some kind of treasure map and that the logo of The Third Turtle was taken from the original. Everybody can think what he wants and by my opinion he was not lying in the description of this item on eBay. The coin was really found by a Haitian fisherman in the ocean close to the Tortuga Island, there is really a grane of sand aside of the head of the turtle and it COULD BE some medallion of a pirate brotherhood. I asked him again after the sale on eBay was over, if he wants to sell it to me for better price, and his answer was NO.
That's all my friends, there is no mystery or fraud in this. I would never post something here on the Forum if I would not be sure that it is real artifact found in the ocean, of whatever origin.

Regards,
Lobo

 

[FISHEYE]

Lobo,

Get him to let you make a mold off it even if its clay or wax.RTV would be better.

 

[Bobadilla]

John,

Fisheye, you have got a perfect idea! I will tell my friend to get me mold of this medallion, let him do it from whatever material, I will send this mold to you and you can start selling.....!

Lobo

 

[FISHEYE]

I know someone in the shipwreck coin repro biz,i know he would like to repro that coin in gold or silver.

 

[realeswatcher]

well we know the coin if real came from the mexico mint due to the crosses having balls in their ends * this design was only used by the mexico mint *-- by looking a few other things --I think its a 1598 to 1617 era mexico mint 8 reale -- cross with a scallopped type edge around it , a ring of hash mark type lines on it as well --the other side would have had a "sheild" design of philip III (its one or a copy of one) that was mated with the turtle at some later time .

Possibly the best known promotion using shipwreck coins was by American Express. Amex used the Lucaya Beach Hotel treasure finds made by Jack Slack. They bought most of the find for a flat low rate, then made special presentation boxes and jewelry that were used to promote some of the first Amex gold cards.
One sided coins were used for one sided jewelry, things like money clips and belt buckles come to mind. Amex had what was considered at the time to have outrageous high prices. Prices that were far above what coin dealers said they were worth. Remember, a coin dealers goal is to buy as low as possible then sell as high as possible. Amex blew the dealers away with their high prices. Amex reasoned that they were not selling to collectors but to people who could afford the best and were willing to pay for it. Authenticity certificates, presentation boxes and jewelry plus the coin and a high price were concepts far beyond that of the coin dealers and their traditional markets at that time. Amex had the ability to market in a way that no coin dealer could touch.
While researching coins from Atocha, we realized that the Lucaya finds were similar in age and limited quantity ( in 1975 )....why not sell at the same prices that Amex had established. After all, Amex had sold out at their prices and not at a price dictated by someone else. Why couldn't we do the same thing ? Naturally the coin dealers went nuts again but the fact was, they were not our market.
Over the years I have seen authentic as well as replica coins and jewelry used as promotions.... Disney, Atlantis resorts, Franklin mint and others.
Marketing in new ways is fun and is only limited by imagination.

Definitely an interesting piece of "ephemera", even assuming it's a modern fashioning and not a Hidden Treasure Map, Pirate Secret Society medallion, Boy Scout badge, or decoder ring. The design on the piece clearly portrays the same logo as that "Third Turtle Club" (that would be WAY beyond coincidental resemblance). It would make sense that it was some sort of promotional piece for the club, thought the location it was apparently found at is a bit curious. I would say also that there would be likely be much more seawear/pitting present if this was a single beach find. The planchet remains chunky enough and unpitted enough where this would most probably have been a piece that had some "protection" around it in the form of lots of other coins.

Regarding what the "host coin" actually is... let's combine the comments above. Ivan, you're very close, fairly early Mexico cob 8R, but a bit early on the dating. From the shape of the planchet (cross side is concave), and the style of lions, this is most likely 1620's (maybe into early 1630's). Donovan, VERY interesting info about the Lucayan Beach (Bahamas) pieces being crafted into promotional items by AmEx... didn't know that. I thought Spink's of London (which held the big auction of these piece) really handled the bulk of the material alone. Do you happen to have any link to more info about that? I'd like to read some more on that... Also an interesting tidbit about that influenced Atocha marketing ideas.

Now, this coin is happens to be the exact type/era coin that comprises the large majority of Lucayan Beach pieces (1620's Mexico). It also just so happens that the Lucayan Beach find came to market right around the time this inn seems to have been in full swing - mid 60's.

Is it crazy to speculate that the proprietors got their hands on one or several Lucayan beach pieces and had some special promo piece made up on them, similar to what AmEx was doing??

 

[Bobadilla]

Realeswatcher,

Thank you very much for your opinion and expertise!

Regards,
Lobo

 

[Patrimony]

The coin was already very worn on the reverse, note all the pitting and corrosion marks, and it appears that the turtle was soldered on several centuries after the coin was produced. Some one correctly noted that there is no drill hole for that to have been worn and they were not too big on coin bezels for souvenier cobs back in the 17 th century.

I spent 2 1/2 years in Haiti including some time exploring and diving up around Cap Haitian and have a good understanding of Haitian mind set. During that time period, a lot of it wasted chasing so called fisherman stories which turned out to be hoaxes or scams to make a few bucks by reporting fabulous artifacts or taking people to places where incredible stories were woven out of nothing, etc..After living in stick, adobe huts in remote places, dodging voodoo curses and bocors, fighting the hostile collapsing infrastructure and environment while being reduced to sucking the marrow out of rooster bones at times to stay alive while also dealing for two years with the crooked government and ISPAN gangsters to obtain a search permit in the south near Ile a Vache etc..: My major revelation after all that, besides my own finds which were interesting, I finally left Haiti cheri with the only other insight is that every Haitian is a natural born liar or thief and that truth and reality and empirical reasoning as we employ to govern our decision making and business are non existant there.

That coin may have indeed been found near Tortuga by a fisherman but I would wager that some modern artist added the turtle soon after the find or that the piece does not even originate in from a site in Haiti. As an individual who has personally either recovered or cleaned over 100,000 cob coins here in Florida or in Ecuador and from land sites in Haiti: Note the worn, pitted, corroded condition of the reverse of that coin vs the condition of the turtle. Also, a Mexican Mint coin lost on a sandy salty beach for centuries would be very green and still exhibit residual patina and the average illiterate Haitian would not have a clue what it was or even how to clean it and, even if they suspected it might be silver, would probably take sand paper to it or cut it into pieces or beat it with a hammer before eventually selling it to some one a little more in cash back in town for $1. In other words they are pretty f...... ......

Finally: Caveat emptor brothers... or as the ancient Romans also used to say "hic niger es caveto tu Romano" P

 

[Bobadilla]

Patrimony,

I must admit that I was a little surprised reading your post full of venom and hate about Haitians.... You might got some negative experience while living there but it does not mean that all Haitians are "born liers and thieves". Many Haitians live here in the Dominican Republic and you might be surprised that I know some of them who are very honest, hard working, speaking four or five languages and with very good knowledge about business matters. Of course, not all of them, only small part of this poor population, but as you surely know, there are liers and thieves as well as good and honest people in each country in the world - including Haiti, Dominican Republic or the United States. I was living two and half years in Ecuador and only for your information, I met more liers ready to cheat foreigners there than Haitians with the same actitude here. I am also quite a bit familiar with problems with "permits and excavations" around Ile a Vache, and in spite of the fact that I was not involved neither directly nor indirectly (Thanks a God!), I would rather omit this topic here....

Speaking about the coin, Haitian fisherman who found it really did not have a clue what it was, the coin was black and who cleaned it was my friend who finally bought it, and definitely not a Haitian scummer, lier and thief, preparing a false artifact to cheat a white man. When I saw the photos of this coin/medallion first I thought that it is interesting artifact and I posted it on the Treasurenet asking for your opionions what do you think about the origin and purpose of that piece. Now I know that it´s highly possible that it was most probably a promotional piece of The Third Turtle Inn back in the 60´s, but somebody can still imagine that it was some kind of brotherhood token in the past or whatever else. Why not..... Nobody can say it exactly today. That´s all.

Lobo