new find

VOC

Sr. Member
Apr 11, 2006
484
188
Atlantic Ocean
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Hi Salvor

You may have miss read the meaning of my post.

I have worked with many good Underwater Archaeologist and know some personally very well, but their knowledge often comes up short when it comes to it (but unfortunately they are often too proud to admit it), but the likes of UNESCO say you have to have a Underwater Archaeologist to work with you on every historic site.

Each one of the skills I mentioned is a Degree course in its own right (hydrographic Surveyor, Naval Architect, Historian, Conservator, Computer Programmer, Professional Photographer, Media Studies, Meteorologist etc., etc., and then you get all the various trade skills such as Professional Diver, Inspection Coordinator, Rigger Banksman, Vessel Master, etc., etc., that are all individual professions, but then a Underwater Archaeologist who gets a fleeting glance at each subject is then is regarded by the Cultural authorities such as UNESCO as an expert in all of them.

I believe you cannot do a wreck project properly as Alexandre say’s you should, unless you use professionals in each discipline, If not their lack of knowledge will be fudged over or much the information will be lost or wrongly portrayed. (don’t forget they can only know what they know, but there may be a lot more in each discipline that they don’t know).

When an archaeologist runs a side scan or multy-beam survey he may feel he has done a good job, but a more skilled professional surveyor may get much more information by the correct processing of the same recovered data.

If most Archaeological reports had to go before a court and be cross examined as a murder scene would be, most of their work would be ripped to bits as inadmissible evidence, misleading, or improbable conclusions etc., but unfortunately as the peer review system for Underwater Archaeology is full of patronism, nepotism, and friendships etc., final reports never get the scrutiny that they should have.

I have worked with many Amateur (A vocational) Archaeologist who would run rings around many of the so called professionals, but due to the lack of a degree as an archaeologist they cannot be in charge of a historic wreck project although he may have a degree in another discipline much needed on the site.

I have nothing against Archaeologist per say, but when the get together to prevent others doing what they should have a legal right to do on the pretence it should be left to the “experts” when in reality the “experts” are not really “experts” at all.

You would never employ a Dentist to do a heart transplant just because he has a basic understanding of the bodies internal sytems and carrying out operations etc., so why would you employ an archaeologist to run a marine survey, better to employ a qualified marine surveyor etc.
 

Digger54

Sr. Member
Dec 6, 2010
281
4
Detector(s) used
Fisher F75SE, Minelab Sovereign GT, Fisher1280X, Nautilus DMCIIB
Re: Ex Spurts

"An expert, more generally, is a person with extensive knowledge or ability based on research, experience, or occupation and in a particular area of study." ... as taken from online definitions.

I learned a long time ago that you should never walk away from a person who claims to be an expert, you should run. ;D
 

bronzecannons

Full Member
Sep 1, 2005
202
87
Oceanside, CA
Primary Interest:
Shipwrecks
cornelis 816 said:
If I had found a wreck like that I think I would keep my mouth shut . Especially in Indonesia . Been there and know the country pretty well . This smells like they want to sucker us in buying some shares . Cornelius

That's exactly right, Cornelius. Michael Hatcher announced he found this wreck over a year ago so something definitely fishy is going on here.
TW
 

Arqueonautas

Newbie
Jun 18, 2011
1
0
Wanli Cargo (www.wanlicargo.com / www.arq.de)

Dear All,

Greetings from the Arqueonautas Team.

Before starting to spread the usual half-truth most of this blogs thrive on I would like to suggest that any issues related to the recovery of the 'Wanli Cargo' shipwreck - which require clarification - are addressed to [email protected] before creating unnecessary confusion on a public platform.

Some basic facts:

1. We are talking about a rescue recovery operation. The 'Wanli Cargo' wreck was located by fishermen early 2009 and is since under attack.

2. All legal licenses are procured from the relevant authorities of the Republic of Indonesia.

3. The entire operation will be conducted by AWW (Arqueonautas Worldwide SA) under strict adherence to proven marine archaeological procedures and comprise of:
- Reconnaissance (closed; report to be shortly published on www.wanlicargo.com),
- Excavation and recovery,
- Documentation, stabilization and conservation of recovered artefacts,
- Final publication on the wreck site, cultural material left in situ and all lifted artefacts

4. The entire project is build on total transparency; you will be kept up-dated on all relevant developments on www.wanlicargo.com and will be able to communicate with the key departments (Operations, Administration, Finance and PR/ Marketing) within reasonable limits.

The Arqueonautas Team thanks you for your support, constructive criticism and trust in our expertise to conduct this challenging project to everyone's expectation.

With best regards,

Nikolaus Sandizell (CEO) / Alejandro Mirabal (COO) / Miguel Moura (CFO) / Miguel Gomes da Costa (Communications)
www.arq.de / www.wanlicargo.com
 

OP
OP
P

piratediver

Sr. Member
Jun 29, 2006
264
6
newport, Rhode Island
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Nice to hear from the actual team doing the work for once rather than critics who have never even seen your operation. As the archaeologist for the WHYDAH project on and off for many years I went through the same nonsense so I feel your pain!

Best of luck to your team, I've been to Portugal and the Acores many times, both beautiful places. I was never able to get permission to search for and excavate wrecks there unfortunately, thanks to commercial projects being prohibited through the influence of more "experts".
Where I live in R.I. and SE New England we have more Azoreans than do the Azores, we have hundreds of Portuguese businesses, sister cities, consulates, etc. and lots of great restaurants as well which give me the feel of the islands and Portugal itself.

Ate logo,


Pirate Diver
 

Alexandre

Bronze Member
Oct 21, 2009
1,047
432
Lisbon
Hey Bob - who would say that 15 years after both you and Sandizel lost your pretensions to the Portuguese wrecks, you would be both posting here? ;)

One of the things I was an expert at, back then, was lobbying against people like you both. Of course, back then, you were dreaming of going after the Mercedes (the same one that Odyssey plundered off Portugal, of course) with the good folks at New Era, right)

(and yes, the Azores are very beautiful. Of course, there are better places than Rabo de Peixe...)
 

jeff k

Bronze Member
Mar 4, 2006
1,264
16
Florida
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
plun·der verb

plun·dered plun·der·ing

Definition of PLUNDER

transitive verb

1a : to take the goods of by force (as in war) : pillage, sack <invaders plundered the town>
b : to take by force or wrongfully : steal, loot <plundered artifacts from the tomb>

2: to make extensive use of as if by plundering : use or use up wrongfully <plunder the land>

intransitive verb

: to commit robbery or looting
— plun·der·er \-dər-ər\ noun

Examples of PLUNDER

The village was plundered by the invading army.
Thieves had long ago plundered the tomb.
The soldiers continued plundering for days.

-------------------------------------------------

sal·vage noun

Definition of SALVAGE

1a : compensation paid for saving a ship or its cargo from the perils of the sea or for the lives and property rescued in a wreck

b : the act of saving or rescuing a ship or its cargo

c : the act of saving or rescuing property in danger (as from fire)

2a : property saved from destruction in a calamity (as a wreck or fire)

b : something extracted (as from rubbish) as valuable or useful

Examples of SALVAGE

The ship was beyond salvage.
the salvage from the wrecked ship
 

VOC

Sr. Member
Apr 11, 2006
484
188
Atlantic Ocean
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
"Profiteers on the High Seas" ? Archaeologist are normally the only ones who ever make a profit from shipwrecks, as they generally don’t do anything without someone else paying them and they would seldom put in any of their own cash to fund an operation.

Most private Archaeological Salvage operations have never made a profit, and have mostely taken more money to complete then they have ever recovered from sales. Artefacts are normally only sold after recording and conservation to fund further excavation or conservation of the important finds.

Archaeologist should get over their total obsession with material things, and concentrate more on obtaining knowledge (once the knowledge from each item has been recovered and recorded (wheight, size, composition, use, markings, wear, etc.), what then happens to the artefact is of much less importance.

One day Underwater Archaeologist will learn it’s much better to work with the private sector than it is to maintain this out-dated and unproductive ethical stance that most of the current breed have latched onto.

All other professions from chemist, doctors, engineers, etc., are happy to work with companies whose motive is profit, but if an archaeologist works with a private salvor their archaeological career is finished, as they will be disowned by their institutions and chastised by their peers etc.

Generally they cannot go back into University Lecturing etc., but if a chemist goes to work for a drug corporation, or an engineer to a defence company (that has often got more ethical issues than underwater archaeology does) they are seldom pilloried by academia or shut out of work opportunities.
 

Salvor6

Silver Member
Feb 5, 2005
3,754
2,167
Port Richey, Florida
Detector(s) used
Aquapulse, J.W. Fisher Proton 3, Pulse Star II, Detector Pro Headhunter, AK-47
Primary Interest:
Shipwrecks
Alexandre, the reports from Elizabeth Bartmou and Heather Pringle that you posted are extremely biased and not true. Odyssey did a GREAT job saving the artifacts on the "Republic" and published full archaeological reports. You guys just don't want to acknoledge their efforts. You are jealous of Odyssey's finds. The example of Filipe Castro is a freakin' joke! He published garbage about peppercorns at great expense to taxpayers!
 

Alexandre

Bronze Member
Oct 21, 2009
1,047
432
Lisbon
Salvor6 said:
Alexandre, the reports from Elizabeth Bartmou and Heather Pringle that you posted are extremely biased and not true. Odyssey did a GREAT job saving the artifacts on the "Republic" and published full archaeological reports. You guys just don't want to acknoledge their efforts. You are jealous of Odyssey's finds. The example of Filipe Castro is a freakin' joke! He published garbage about peppercorns at great expense to taxpayers!

He also found Ming porcelain, gold jewels, silver coins and astrolabes. And the only known example of a Portuguese nau of the Discoveries.
And he published them, too.

And if, my friend, you find that finding 400 year old peppercorns - the very stuff that made Portuguese ships travel for almost a year to the other side of the globe to a great cost of silver and lifes - is "garbage"...

(also, whatever Filipe did with INA was not done with any unwilling taxpayer's money... )
 

OP
OP
P

piratediver

Sr. Member
Jun 29, 2006
264
6
newport, Rhode Island
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Paulo/Alexandre: It wasn't just the MERCEDES I was interested in, remember NHF also? Maybe if we and other groups had been allowed to work there Portugal wouldn't be in such tough financial condition?

I wonder why you associate with evil treasure hunters on this site anyway. As for Rabo de Peixe, yes there are more beautiful places in the Azores for sure. Here is a story you will enjoy: In 1989 my wife and I were visiting the new whaling museum on Pico and they had a log book on exhibit from a whaler that came from my home town in Warren, R.I. How's that for a small world?

My next door neighbors just built a beautiful house on Faial near the sea, maybe I'll ruin into you over there underwater.


Pirate Diver
 

VOC

Sr. Member
Apr 11, 2006
484
188
Atlantic Ocean
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
"Following this path puts the Smithsonian in the indefensible position of aiding those who believe that antiquities are a commodity to be mined for personal or corporate financial gain. They are not—they are part of the world’s cultural patrimony".

So are paitings, ceramics, land based finds, historic aircraft, old cars, books, orgional musical manuscripts etc, etc, all off which are openly traded and sold at auctions etc,
 

Alexandre

Bronze Member
Oct 21, 2009
1,047
432
Lisbon
Well, I was re-reading myself and I found out that I did not express myself very well or very appropriately.

What I meant was: the Portuguese Government issued a permit for underwater archaeological work to be conducted, within the next 3 years (with an option for renovation) under the auspices of the UNESCO Convention and the underwater heritage national law concerning this type of heritage to the Institute of Archaeology and Paleosciences, for all waters confronting the Grandola county.

Within this context, I am the archaeologist in charge and overall person responsible for all scientific procedures within the project.






Alexandre said:
What am I doing? Well, you will read about what I am doing right now in... hmmm... let's say... in two year's time. In National Geographic.

(I got a permit from the Portuguese Government last week for a survey of a 65km stretch of Portuguese coastline - and two targets are candidates to be the first treasure ships to be properly and scientifically excavated. And yes, UNESCO and Spain are on the loop).
 

Au_Dreamers

Hero Member
Dec 15, 2010
988
668
back on the 1715!!
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
by Elizabeth Bartman
As the largest and oldest organization devoted to archaeology in North America, the Archaeological Institute of America is committed to the protection of the world’s cultural heritage. As part of this commitment we strongly oppose the commercial salvage of antiquities and any exploitation of archaeological materials obtained in this manner.
__________________________________________________________________________________
Following this path puts the Smithsonian in the indefensible position of aiding those who believe that antiquities are a commodity to be mined for personal or corporate financial gain. They are not—they are part of the world’s cultural patrimony.
Does that mean she supports the exploitation of archaeological materials obtained by archaeological methods?

Wouldn’t placing antiquities in a museum and charging a FEE for entrance, obtaining and paying archaeologists to recover antiquities be personal and corporate financial gain?

I know assuming can make one and ass but I would assume most Colleges and Universities are incorporated entities. Wouldn’t an archaeologist from a College or University that recovers antiquities be doing so for personal and corporate financial gain?

The archaeologist can write a book and SELL it for personal financial gain. One could also publish papers, which gives one popularity allowing one to earn more in salary, payment for public appearances and public speaking. One could also gain future employment, again obtaining personal financial gain.

The positive press of the antiquities recovered by the archaeologist could attract students to the College or University, resulting in personal financial gain for the private individuals employed there and corporate financial gain for the College or University. Much like when collegiate sports teams perform well and receive an increase in applicants.


So any way you look at it, the recovery of antiquities is BIG BUSINESS!!
 

VOC

Sr. Member
Apr 11, 2006
484
188
Atlantic Ocean
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
"Well, I was re-reading myself and I found out that I did not express myself very well or very appropriately"

No need to apologise Alexandre, we are all used to reading Archaeological Reports written in this way.
 

Re: Ex Spurts

Digger54 said:
"An expert, more generally, is a person with extensive knowledge or ability based on research, experience, or occupation and in a particular area of study." ... as taken from online definitions.

I learned a long time ago that you should never walk away from a person who claims to be an expert, you should run. ;D
Expert.....Ex a has been and a spert a drip under preasure
 

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