Archaeologist admits to destroying shipwrecks

[Au_Dreamers]

Chuck Meide, director of the Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Program recently said

" “When an archeologist is digging on a shipwreck, we are literally destroying that shipwreck,” Meide said."

http://staugustineunderground.net/2011/staugustine/news/florida/the-wealth-of-knowledge/2067/

 

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[old man]

Chuck Meide, director of the Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Program recently said

" “When an archeologist is digging on a shipwreck, we are literally destroying that shipwreck,” Meide said."

http://staugustineunderground.net/2011/staugustine/news/florida/the-wealth-of-knowledge/2067/

Talk about calling the Kettle Black. I think archeologists should take a look in the mirror after that comment before they start vilifying treasure hunters.

 

[jeff k]

That's true of all archaeological excavations. It doesn't mean it's a bad thing.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

We need to keep a watch on this guy.

Someone who will publicly defame private sector salvage ignoring ALL that we have done is very dangerous.

He also publicly states,

"Meide said treasure-hunting groups don’t do the same quality of work that organizations like his carry out, and it’s a tragedy that treasure hunting is still legal in Florida."

Danger Will Robinson, DANGER!

If this guy receives taxpayers’ dollars he needs to be held accountable.

I am sick and tired of “employees of the people” who are elitists and prejudice.

If those people are in positions that are appointed then we need to let the elected “employees of the people” that appointed them know we will hold “them” accountable.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

That's true of all archaeological excavations. It doesn't mean it's a bad thing.

In situ

 

[ivan salis]

he has a stop all "treasure salvage" agenda -- I personally attending a "archie" group gathering held at the lighthouse at st augustine ( to understand what your "enemy" is doing , what better thing to do then to go to their "meetings" and see what their talking about !)

while there -- they bragged about -- how the state had not issued any "new" salvage permits for years and how proud they that "their" work helped in that.--- ( basically the state and folks like LAMP * were working together to try and put "for profeit salvors" out of bussiness )--by denying new , fresh working permits and that the state was basically only renewing existing permits --knowing that sooner or later the "returns" from the old / renewed permits would make them --economically unworthy of being renewed.

I pointed out at a state vs salvors meeting --when the state wanted to change the salvors rules they work by --the "illegal" catch 22 the state had set up in the permitting process -- the state REQUIRED that to get a permit --you had to have a "state approved archie" sign off to be on your project to "oversee" the recovery and recording of objects --now the only group of archies that were "state approved archies" -- had just passed a by law that stated that NO MEMBER OF THIS GROUP SHALL WORK FOR ANY "FOR PROFIET SALVAGE GROUP"-- IF THEY DO SO -- THEY WILL BE DISMISSED FROM "THE APPROVED ARCHIE GROUP" -- thus it was impossible to meet the reqirement of getting a "state approved archie" to sign off on it , because once he did he would be "kicked out" and thus not a "state approved archie" anymore --I pointed this --highly illegal "catch 22" type set up to the state officals at the meeting warning them that unless it was "fixed" that they were opening up the tax payors of florida to a lawsuit --and as a tax payor of florida --myself-- with them now being properly warned "on the record" that if they did not take proper corrective action --complaints would "offically filed" by me for them be "negligent in their duties" by exposing the citizens iof florida tro a lawsuit .

yes salvage of any type wiether by by archies or salvors -- causes some destruction -- DUH -- but nature itself is very very destructive to shipwrecks --the let it rot "in place" until a not for profiet group can finally fiscally afford to look at it -- is the "only we the non profiet tax payor funded archies can look at these shipwrecks no one else is allowed to touch our "holy grail" -- "dream come true"--pompus buncha A Holes

 

[theseeker]

he has a stop all "treasure salvage" agenda -- I personally attending a "archie" group gathering held at the lighthouse at st augustine ( to understand what your "enemy" is doing , what better thing to do then to go to their "meetings" and see what their talking about !)

while there -- they bragged about -- how the state had not issued any "new" salvage permits for years and how proud they that "their" work helped in that.--- ( basically the state and folks like LAMP * were working together to try and put "for profeit salvors" out of bussiness )--by denying new , fresh working permits and that the state was basically only renewing existing permits --knowing that sooner or later the "returns" from the old / renewed permits would make them --economically unworthy of being renewed.

I pointed out at a state vs salvors meeting --when the state wanted to change the salvors rules they work by --the "illegal" catch 22 the state had set up in the permitting process -- the state REQUIRED that to get a permit --you had to have a "state approved archie" sign off to be on your project to "oversee" the recovery and recording of objects --now the only group of archies that were "state approved archies" -- had just passed a by law that stated that NO MEMBER OF THIS GROUP SHALL WORK FOR ANY "FOR PROFIET SALVAGE GROUP"-- IF THEY DO SO -- THEY WILL BE DISMISSED FROM "THE APPROVED ARCHIE GROUP" -- thus it was impossible to meet the reqirement of getting a "state approved archie" to sign off on it , because once he did he would be "kicked out" and thus not a "state approved archie" anymore --I pointed this --highly illegal "catch 22" type set up to the state officals at the meeting warning them that unless it was "fixed" that they were opening up the tax payors of florida to a lawsuit --and as a tax payor of florida --myself-- with them now being properly warned "on the record" that if they did not take proper corrective action --complaints would "offically filed" by me for them be "negligent in their duties" by exposing the citizens iof florida tro a lawsuit .

yes salvage of any type wiether by by archies or salvors -- causes some destruction -- DUH -- but nature itself is very very destructive to shipwrecks --the let it rot "in place" until a not for profiet group can finally fiscally afford to look at it -- is the "only we the non profiet tax payor funded archies can look at these shipwrecks no one else is allowed to touch our "holy grail" -- "dream come true"--pompus buncha A Holes

Ivan, glad you were there to serve notice that you were fully aware of the catch 22 on the permitting and that you would indeed hold them accountable if they did not take corrective action on the permitting process. Way to Go !!!! Also, the last paragraph you wrote sums it up perfectly!

 

[centfladigger]

the state did the same thing to those of us the dive the rivers for artifatcs. They pulled our IFP ( Isolated Finds Program) about 5 + years ago. The state saw that they werent making any money off of the ebay sales and artifact show sales so they stopped all. I personally never have and still dont sell my finds whether digging or diving. Judy Bense was the one who did it for us. Most of these arrowheads or anything man made we find are not in context with a site. At least we can still fossil dive legally with our $5 permit

 

[Alexandre]

If you excavate something, then the context is gone forever. Excavating is like tearing the pages off an unique book, reading them and them setting them on fire: if you dont' record what you have read, it's gone forever.

It's the way you excavate that differentiates the archaeologist from the treasure hunter - usually, for a TH time is money and, after all, they are only after the "goodies".

(also, if you excavate properly but then fail to publish you data, you might as well be a treasure hunter, too)

 

[Darren in NC]

...after all, they are only after the "goodies".

...sigh. Why is this still being said when every major outfit employs one or more archaeologists? They do this even though they are criticized endlessly for not caring about history. Get out of the 1950s, eh? Heck, archaeologist didn't even believe that underwater shipwreck science was possible until treasure hunters proved them wrong.

also, if you excavate properly but then fail to publish you data, you might as well be a treasure hunter, too

I would argue more has been published by centuries of treasure hunters than archaeologists. Who has really benefited public knowledge more?

Erase your lines in the sand and maybe you'll learn more.

 

[Sapper23]

DNC,

" Erase your lines in the sand and maybe you'll learn more "


If they ever did that in Saint Augustine, SAA, LAMP.. mite just get the RIGHT History of Saint Augustine.!!!!!!!
It's ashamed, how much history being Lost!!! Not just in St. Aug. but threw out the world!!! because of there worthless way of thinking!!!!

Like Ivan said.. and being nice.. there: " pompus buncha A Holes.....

 

[aloysiusinfla]

If you excavate something, then the context is gone forever. Excavating is like tearing the pages off an unique book, reading them and them setting them on fire: if you dont' record what you have read, it's gone forever.

It's the way you excavate that differentiates the archaeologist from the treasure hunter - usually, for a TH time is money and, after all, they are only after the "goodies".

(also, if you excavate properly but then fail to publish you data, you might as well be a treasure hunter, too)

Unfortunately, Mother Nature has little respect for underwater sites, and continues to ravage them despite what the desk jockeys in the state "archaeology" (sic) department want, and expect, to happen.

 

[ivan salis]

mother nature does as she wishes --without any regard as to what "mere" humans want to occur , and she doesn't apply for any permits either, --- matter of fact if humans had their way over mother nature -- there would be no storm occuring shipwrecks to explore now would there? :P

the mere fact that there are shipwrecks tells you who's "the boss" between mother nature and man .

 

[FISHEYE]

Humans DO have their way with mother nature.Read up about HAARP and how they control the weather.

 

[fibberjibber]

...after all, they are only after the "goodies".

...sigh. Why is this still being said when every major outfit employs one or more archaeologists? They do this even though they are criticized endlessly for not caring about history. Get out of the 1950s, eh? Heck, archaeologist didn't even believe that underwater shipwreck science was possible until treasure hunters proved them wrong.

also, if you excavate properly but then fail to publish you data, you might as well be a treasure hunter, too

I would argue more has been published by centuries of treasure hunters than archaeologists. Who has really benefited public knowledge more?

Erase your lines in the sand and maybe you'll learn more.

The problem I have with Darren's second comment is that just posting online or writing about items found is not the same valuable data the archies are talking about. I do see both sides of the argument, and see the amazing lack of understanding on both sides too. This is actually a 4-5 hour discussion over beer and a fire in my backyard kind of talk but I will sum it up like this: there are important sites and then there are IMPORTANT sites. The archies should be working hand-in-hand with the MDers and divers to locate, identify, and excavate the IMPORTANT ones and leave the rest to the ones who put all the exhaustive hours and private funding into locating them. The MDers and divers have to be willing to give up control of the sites that are IMPORTANT. Reason being that simple orientation of a particular item, even as small as a arrow tip, can give significant information about the rest of the artifacts in situ or the site itself. We are all after the goodies- MDers, divers and archies. The archies may have put in laws but they are pushing too far in too many states. The political backlash could put them in our shoes if they do not mind our rights. I will also add that the archies are trained in the universities in such a way to vilify the treasure hunters which in turn gives them the sense that they have greater claim to these artifacts on behalf of the public good. Pthtthththth. I am the public and if I put in the time, research and effort AND I am not ruining provenance on a significant site, what is the problem? I dont piss on your hobby.

 

[Red_desert]

Archaeologists can make a big deal out of anything...I mean old glass bottles, anything collected is looting to them!

 

[Coinstriking Michigan]

Archies just get pissed that amateurs with metal detectors find better stuff than they do, and we didn't need schooling to do it. They spend all that money on schooling/loans to find out they aren't making dink for money.

 

[fibberjibber]

Archies just get pissed that amateurs with metal detectors find better stuff than they do, and we didn't need schooling to do it. They spend all that money on schooling/loans to find out they aren't making dink for money.

I have to firmly disagree. Archaeologists have found far better and more amazing finds than any I have seen on here. Any. Not to discount what is found with a MD!! But I have seen much of this stuff in museum archives and I am sure the rest I could see in museums somewhere. Plus, they have things to drool over in the archives.
I would say that the problem is more about greed of control than anything else. Many of the older archaeologists I have had the privilege to work with or know actually see the value in MDers. Furthermore, many agree that the museums and universities have more in their collections than they can financially manage as it is so to add more (in most cases) is redundant and fiscally moronic. Some do confide, albeit privately, that the belief by some archaeologists who feel the need to control all artifacts and dismiss MDers and divers as robbers is narrow-minded and, frankly, stupid.
So I believe the challenge to many MDers is to avoid sounding like some of their archaeologist counterparts when you choose abusive and non-productive language to represent the entire group. I know I hate it when they do it to us and I am the first to point it out.
One more thing, all archaeologists rarely care about most of the stuff we bring up. What they do care about is the context and worry that valuable information could be lost. I believe that is a valid point but care should be taken to not apply that to all relics at all sites. In many many cases there is little that can be gleaned from modern metallic artifacts that isn't known already. Unless it is representing a new site that was previously unknown and is historically significant. Even then, tho, its usually not the items themselves but the site that is important.

 

[Coinstriking Michigan]

Archies just get pissed that amateurs with metal detectors find better stuff than they do, and we didn't need schooling to do it. They spend all that money on schooling/loans to find out they aren't making dink for money.

I have to firmly disagree. Archaeologists have found far better and more amazing finds than any I have seen on here. Any. Not to discount what is found with a MD!! But I have seen much of this stuff in museum archives and I am sure the rest I could see in museums somewhere. Plus, they have things to drool over in the archives.
I would say that the problem is more about greed of control than anything else. Many of the older archaeologists I have had the privilege to work with or know actually see the value in MDers. Furthermore, many agree that the museums and universities have more in their collections than they can financially manage as it is so to add more (in most cases) is redundant and fiscally moronic. Some do confide, albeit privately, that the belief by some archaeologists who feel the need to control all artifacts and dismiss MDers and divers as robbers is narrow-minded and, frankly, stupid.
So I believe the challenge to many MDers is to avoid sounding like some of their archaeologist counterparts when you choose abusive and non-productive language to represent the entire group. I know I hate it when they do it to us and I am the first to point it out.
One more thing, all archaeologists rarely care about most of the stuff we bring up. What they do care about is the context and worry that valuable information could be lost. I believe that is a valid point but care should be taken to not apply that to all relics at all sites. In many many cases there is little that can be gleaned from modern metallic artifacts that isn't known already. Unless it is representing a new site that was previously unknown and is historically significant. Even then, tho, its usually not the items themselves but the site that is important.

My post was meant to be half comical, but I can only comment seriously on what I have personally experienced. My brother found a copper celt axe head in a park one day. He contacted some museums and such to inquire about it's age/significance. Well he talked to a female archie from a very well known university and rather than offer any help, she basically called my brother a thief and demanded to know where he found it. He was actually contemplating donating it but instead told her directly that he wouldn't reveal where he found it and that he would be selling it now to fund another detector.

 

[bronzecannons]

My post was meant to be half comical, but I can only comment seriously on what I have personally experienced. My brother found a copper celt axe head in a park one day. He contacted some museums and such to inquire about it's age/significance. Well he talked to a female archie from a very well known university and rather than offer any help, she basically called my brother a thief and demanded to know where he found it. He was actually contemplating donating it but instead told her directly that he wouldn't reveal where he found it and that he would be selling it now to fund another detector.

LOL! That's a good one! I agree with you bro 100%.
TW