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Thread: French in Florida prior to Menendez

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  1. #21
    us
    Oct 2007
    Pascagoula Ms.
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    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    Yes the spanish did that also - i have found #5 cubas...But they all had to start with 1 somewhere. If i could find some info on a later fort in this area with the name Charle fort then i may change my mind.The map is 1718

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  3. #22
    us
    May 2008
    Wisconsin
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    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    Quote Originally Posted by RELICDUDE07
    Yes the spanish did that also - i have found #5 cubas...But they all had to start with 1 somewhere. If i could find some info on a later fort in this area with the name Charle fort then i may change my mind.The map is 1718
    Well, I'm not going to take on changing your mind - I have to do way too much of that already, and the best person to do that is you.

    Here's a hint: I just set up my 'software' to make that possible; saves an enormous amount of time, money, and aggravation.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

    "You ask where I live. I cannot tell you. I am a Voyageur, a Chicot, sir. I live everywhere. My grandfather was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. My father was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. I will also die while en route, and another Chicot will take my place. Such is our course of life."

  4. #23
    us
    Jun 2011
    21

    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    Cedar Key once had huge stands of Cedar trees.

  5. #24

    Apr 2008
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    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    Signumops, Just looking over this thread... My wife is dutch and can maybe translate for you... I will show her the page you posted and see if she can... I know the Dutch written in your book is old, kinda like old Spanish. I have other books that I've had her translate for me and she did just fine.


  6. #25

    Feb 2007
    U.S.
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    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    Goho:
    Thanks, but, Gaetan Algoet is doing the translation and we are already a third of the way done. I want to have the book out by Spring. Gaetan seems to be zipping through it, and I know it must be hard to read. Most of it is printed in Volk Script.

    Meanwhile we are cross checking it with Lyon, Bennett, Melanich, B. Smith, Hawkins and so forth. The whole story(s) has become somewhat mythical.

    What definitely is a fact through several sources, including this one I am working on: Spaniards were cruising Treasure Coast and beyond on slave raids probably before Ponce DeLeon got here. There could be some very old stuff to find in the Eastern Florida Coastal Zone.

  7. #26
    us
    May 2008
    Wisconsin
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    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    Quote Originally Posted by signumops
    Goho:What definitely is a fact through several sources, including this one I am working on: Spaniards were cruising Treasure Coast and beyond on slave raids probably before Ponce DeLeon got here. There could be some very old stuff to find in the Eastern Florida Coastal Zone.
    Can you give sources for that?

    I'm interested in early Indian - Spanish interaction. That would explain a lot.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

    "You ask where I live. I cannot tell you. I am a Voyageur, a Chicot, sir. I live everywhere. My grandfather was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. My father was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. I will also die while en route, and another Chicot will take my place. Such is our course of life."

  8. #27

    Feb 2007
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    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    The book we are translating specifys an incident where 40 Indians were captured by the Spanish from the natives in the vicinity of Jacksonville. Also you can find similar footnotes in "The Enterprise of Florida" by Eugene Lyon. The Cantino map of 1502, excerpted below, shows Florida with placenames, including some in the Gulf. The Indians in Hispaniola were killed off by around 1500, so Spain needed more slave labor. I will give you some more later. Gotta run to a BBQ right now.
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  9. #28
    us
    da book worm--researcher

    Feb 2007
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    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    if the spanish took slaves from what is now known as the "jacksonville" area earlier on before the french put fort caroline in the st johns river in 1562* --that might explain why the indains there were freindly to the french when they arrived (since the french did not carry any off or attempt to "enslave" them but instead traded with them) plus once the indains found out that the french were foes of the spanish "enslavers"-- the indains figgered out that having the french around could prove useful against farther spanish "slave raids"

  10. #29
    us
    Oct 2007
    Pascagoula Ms.
    minelab exp.
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    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    I think some of the Mound builder Indians on the gulf coast were trading with ships from the (Sung) Dynasty (960-1276 I'm just a bit cazy also

  11. #30

    Feb 2007
    U.S.
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    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    Yep, the French allied with the Indians against the Spanish for sure and made good use of them when they made their first initial attack on the Spaniards in Florida. French went by ship and the Indians coordinated with them for the land attack.

    When Ponce de Leon landed on the east coast of Florida, he was met with a hail of arrows and was forced to retreat. This was not the reception paid the French. The Indians recognized him as a Spaniard presumably and drove him away.

    Hard to know if the slavers in the New World would record their comings and goings in Florida early on (first decade of the 1500's) as there was a royal edict forbidding the slavery of the native population, albeit a tongue in cheek arrangement.

  12. #31
    us
    May 2008
    Wisconsin
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    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    Quote Originally Posted by ivan salis
    if the spanish took slaves from what is now known as the "jacksonville" area earlier on before the french put fort caroline in the st johns river in 1562* --that might explain why the indains there were freindly to the french when they arrived (since the french did not carry any off or attempt to "enslave" them but instead traded with them) plus once the indains found out that the french were foes of the spanish "enslavers"-- the indains figgered out that having the french around could prove useful against farther spanish "slave raids"
    I agree, Ivan. Like I said, that explains a lot. I wonder how they could tell the difference between Spanish and French? Maybe by their behavior?

    That's a well known Spanish reaction to indigenous peoples in America, so why wouldn't they do the same in Florida?

    A little known chapter of history, but interesting one. Thanks, signumops.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

    "You ask where I live. I cannot tell you. I am a Voyageur, a Chicot, sir. I live everywhere. My grandfather was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. My father was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. I will also die while en route, and another Chicot will take my place. Such is our course of life."

  13. #32

    Feb 2007
    U.S.
    Garrett, Minelab, Aqua-Pulse
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    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    Hey Bumluck:
    I was trying to think of this particular book... read "The Early Spanish Main" by Carl Ortwin Sauer. Easy read, and very thorough. Great deal to do with the Spaniard and the native people.

  14. #33
    us
    Oct 2007
    Pascagoula Ms.
    minelab exp.
    2,127
    22 times

    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    I really don't think the fort they show in Jacksonville is the same fort from the original drawings from the french in 1564...The river that ran around the fort would have gotten wider over the years from erosion.
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  15. #34
    us
    Oct 2007
    Pascagoula Ms.
    minelab exp.
    2,127
    22 times

    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    I also found a better pic . of some of the strange blonde indians like in the above French Florida pic!
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  16. #35
    us
    da book worm--researcher

    Feb 2007
    callahan,fl
    delta 4000 / ace 250 - used BH and many others too
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    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    there are those who think the viking's travelleed down the coastlines of america * when they went exploring from a known base area they had in newfoundland canada area in the 1000 ish era. -- if they during their explorations met and bred with local native indain tribes -- it would explain the reports ofblond and red headed natives that later european explorers met.

  17. #36

    Feb 2007
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    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    Yep, this is part of the modern day Inet BS cloud that has re-written history. That book may have been manufactured in 1591, but the fort was built 30 years or so earlier, and the illustrators made the drawings AFTER they returned to Europe.

    Most of the French party available to build such a thing would not make it that substantial. Sand and logs would have done the job.

    Below is a woodcut from the book Gaetan and I are translating. It is a much more reliable recount of the fort, and as you can see, it uses the tilted timber revetments as recreated by the NPS. And this won't cost you nine bucks either!
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  18. #37
    us
    Oct 2007
    Pascagoula Ms.
    minelab exp.
    2,127
    22 times

    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    Gallicum = Golfe = Gulf Your right about the construction- but notice the short wall behind the wood logs,most likely tabby....Early settlers found only trees and the raw materials for tabby (and none of the stones and brick-clay they had known in Europe) when they began building permanent structures in this coastal area . The Native Americans of the Sea Islands had left many heaps of shells, the accumulation of countless past oyster roasts. Builders extracted the lime by burning the oyster shells. They then painstakingly removed all salt from the shells and from the sand to keep the concrete firm and whole (the salt weakened the concrete mixture). The cleaned sand, a mixture of coarse and fine varieties extracted from sand pits, was added to the lime and shells to make the tabby concrete.
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  19. #38
    us
    Oct 2007
    Pascagoula Ms.
    minelab exp.
    2,127
    22 times

    Re: French in Florida prior to Menendez

    My guess is most of the mix up came from them thinking the peedes river & st Miguel was in the Atlantic Around the time Of San Miguel de Galdape 1526 . It is what it is -don't think they will change the history books,but may help with the real treasure hunt!Oh the top map is (1529 Gulf of mexico)
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  20. #39

    Feb 2007
    U.S.
    Garrett, Minelab, Aqua-Pulse
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    Book is DONE and on sale now

    Well, it took years, and a lot of miles, but it was worth it. This is a full color book, so it is not cheap, but, if you have any interest in treasure lost, you might find it interesting. Thanks to Buddy Martin for sharing his original manuscript, and to Gaetan Algoet for his translation work. While writing this, I found out a LOT. It's been a great publishing project, that's for sure! Hats off to Bob Baer and Doug Armstrong.
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  21. #40
    us
    Feb 2008
    Northern Indiana
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    Congrats!
    Treasure hunting is more than "just a hobby" for it's become my way of life.

 

 
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