Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCOs Convention 10 years mark)

Alexandre

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Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

Should shipwrecks be left alone?


BBC News, By Chris Summers, 31/10/2011

It is 10 years since a deal to protect the world's thousands of shipwrecks, but the UK and several other major maritime powers are yet to ratify it. Should this underwater heritage be protected or is it acceptable to plunder?

When a ship sinks and lives are lost, it is a tragedy for the families involved.

For the relatives of the dead, the ship becomes an underwater grave but as the years pass the wreck can become a site of archaeological interest.
In recent years technological innovations have allowed commercial archaeologists, decried by some as "treasure hunters", to reach wrecks far below the surface.

The most famous of them all, the Titanic, is more than four miles down and to get there as film director James Cameron has shown, involves using "robot" divers which are prohibitively expensive - around $50,000 (ÂŁ32,000) a day.

Salvage firms are most interested in ships with cargoes of gold and silver, ceramics or other valuables.

In November 2001, the Unesco Convention on the Protection of Underwater Cultural Heritage was finally adopted.

But 10 years on, it still has not been ratified by the UK, France, Russia, China or the US, and commercial archaeologists continue to locate wrecks, remove their cargoes and sell them off.

"The convention has not been ratified yet because of the issues it throws up about the cost of implementing and policing it," a spokesman for the UK Department for Culture, Media and Sport, says. "Discussions continue within government, but ratification is not currently seen as a priority."
In September Britain's Department of Transport announced it had signed a deal with Odyssey Marine Exploration for the salvage of 200 tonnes of silver, worth up to ÂŁ150m, from the SS Gairsoppa, which was sunk by a German U-Boat in 1941.

The British government will get 20% of whatever Odyssey recovers but Unesco says the deal broke the spirit of the convention.

Robert Yorke, chairman of the Joint Nautical Archaeology Policy Committee, argues the real reason the government, and the Ministry of Defence in particular, are not ratifying the convention was becayse of a misplaced fear about the implications for British warships around the world.

The internationally recognised concept of "sovereign immunity" means nations should not interfere with foreign warships.

Under the Military Remains Act 1986, a number of British warships around the world are protected, including several ships sunk during the Falklands conflict. Also covered are several German U-boats in UK waters.

There are an estimated three million wrecks on the seabed.

Unesco believes attitudes to the exploration of wrecks are out of step with land archaeology.

"The looting of the tombs of Tutankhamen is now considered unacceptable, so why is the looting of shipwrecks considered acceptable?" says Unesco's Tim Curtis.

Caesar Bita is a Kenyan maritime archaeologist and an expert on ancient trade between China and Africa.

He believes he is close to finding the remains of the legendary fleet of Zheng He. According to stories, a ship from the Chinese admiral's fleet is thought to have foundered off the coast of Kenya in the early 1400s.

Bita says the wrecks could provide evidence of early contact between China and East Africa.

"Shipwrecks are always under threat all over the world by people collecting material from the site and the situation in Kenya is not unique," he says.
Sean Fisher, whose grandfather Mel discovered the treasure ship Nuestra Senora de Atocha off Florida, says he is not "ashamed to call himself a treasure hunter."

"Purist archaeologists turn up their noses at us," he says. "But every artefact we find, whether it's a piece of pottery, a gold bar or a spike used in the rigging gets treated with exactly the same care.
"Everybody loves gold and everybody has a bit of treasure hunter in them but for me the most exciting thing I ever found was a 400-year-old arquebus (hook gun). It was like bringing history back to life."

But the idea that mass heritage is at risk is scaremongering, says Dr Sean Kingsley, a director of Wreck Watch International and a spokesman for Odyssey.

"Sand dredging, offshore fishing, pipeline laying, scuba-diving trophy hunters and governments' failures to police these industries are the true greatest threats to the world's shipwrecks."

He argues that the nations which have ratified the convention represent only 5% of the world's coastline.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15031084


The convention only covers wrecks that are over 100 years old, which means the Titanic will only be covered from next year and ships from World War I and II have no protection.

That is something which concerns naval veterans.

Last month seven European naval associations wrote a letter to The Times to protest at Dutch salvage firms who they said were "desecrating" the graves of three British warships, which were torpedoed off the Netherlands in 1914, in their search for scrap metal.

But some wartime wrecks have been protected.

The Polish Maritime Office recently placed a 500m diving exclusion zone around the wreck of the Wilhelm Gustloff, which sank in the Baltic in January 1945. The ship, packed with 10,000 German refugees from the Eastern Front, was sunk by a Soviet sub. Only 500 survived and it is the single largest death toll at sea.

In 2006 Australian divers located the wreck of a Japanese mini-submarine, M24, three miles off Sydney.The sub, which is believed to contain the bodies of two young Japanese submariners, came to grief after taking part in an attack on Sydney harbour in 1942.

The Australian authorities placed a similar 500m zone around the wreck, monitored by sensitive hydrophones, with a A$1.1m (ÂŁ725,587) fine for anyone who interferes with the wreck.

Maritime archaeologist Mark Wilde-Ramsing is unlikely to get to meet the relatives of those who died on the wreck he is exploring.

The Queen Anne's Revenge was an English pirate ship commanded by Edward Teach, better known as Blackbeard, which sank off the coast of North Carolina in 1718.

Many of the exhibits - including pistols, rum bottles, slave shackles and a surgeon's kit - are now on display at a museum in North Carolina but sadly Blackbeard's treasure was nowhere to be found.

But the convention does not just apply to shipwrecks.

It also covers archaeological sites which are now underwater, such as Port Royal in Jamaica, a former pirate harbour once described as the "wickedest city on Earth", as well as prehistoric sites in the North Sea, and the waters off Alexandria, in Egypt.

But if wrecks and ruins continue to fascinate, what is the best way to satisfy the public curiosity?

In 1982 the Mary Rose, flagship of England's King Henry VIII, was raised from the Solent and next year a ÂŁ35m museum will open in Portsmouth.
Some argue it would have been better, in hindsight, for the Mary Rose to have stayed on the seabed, because of the expensive chemical treatment needed to preserve the timbers.

"It has created the myth that all shipwrecks are bottomless money pits and that hull and mass artefact recovery are best avoided," suggests Dr Kingsley.

But Prof Jon Adams, head of maritime archaeology at the University of Southampton, strongly disagrees.

"If it was falling to pieces and nobody came to see it I'd agree, but its conservation has been a highly successful research project in its own right and it is the most popular maritime museum in world with over 300,000 visitors a year," he says.

Many experts believe the future is in underwater trails or virtual museums, where the wreck remains in situ and cameras relay real-time pictures to a museum on the surface.

Australia is also home to a number of "underwater heritage trails", with plaques offering information for divers.

In the Dominican Republic a "living museum" has been set up around the wrecks of two Spanish galleons which sank during a hurricane in 1724.
The living museum was the idea of Prof Charles Beeker, of Indiana University.

"We want people to come and visit but to take only pictures and leave only bubbles," he says.

Prof Beeker, who has also discovered the wreck of Captain Kidd's pirate ship the Quedagh Merchant, said all divers had to be "sensitive" to the fact that wrecks are essentially graveyards and he criticised some who took the skulls of Japanese seamen from the many wrecks in Truk Lagoon in the Pacific.

While it pushes in situ preservation, Unesco is hopeful several major countries, including Australia and France, might soon ratify the convention to give it more weight.

Dr Kingsley is doubtful and says self-regulation is the best way forward: "The future is going to be an expensive and unimaginable journey, a challenge best met by sharing ideas, information and enlightened management, not by using the Unesco convention to slap parking tickets' on robots' windows."

But Prof Adams says self-regulation does not work and added: "The Unesco convention represents best practice and is the only feasible way of protecting underwater cultural heritage in international waters."
 

allan

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

I say plunder them, why do you bother posting this here ? incite and inflame ? I know for one thing due to Spains recent actions if I find a spanish ship I will strip it clean and never tell a soul where I found it.
 

bronzecannons

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

allan said:
I say plunder them, why do you bother posting this here ? incite and inflame ? I know for one thing due to Spains recent actions if I find a spanish ship I will strip it clean and never tell a soul where I found it.

Here! Here! Screw you, UNESCO, but I'm going with Allan on this!
TW
 

Au_Dreamers

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

"Should this underwater heritage be protected or is it acceptable to plunder?"

and he lost me right there with that narrow minded point of view...

Happy Halloween!! Got goblins to chase!
 

bronzecannons

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

Au_Dreamers said:
"Should this underwater heritage be protected or is it acceptable to plunder?"

and he lost me right there with that narrow minded point of view...

Happy Halloween!! Got goblins to chase!

Protected from WHO? And I'm sure none of us here want to do any plundering also but there has to be some medium ground here also whereby we can study and recover it without those idiots saying we're out plundering everything.
TW
 

stevemc

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

I never bought into their BS. I remember that first year they proposed that bunk. I was in Freeport, Grand Bahama, and there was some dive shop, and it was some kind of UNESCO headquarters, and I still remember (it wasnt that long ago!) looking at the big sign showing what UNESCO stood for and what it did, and having read of their stupid rule prior, I did the horse blow, ppffffffhhhh. Out loud. A bunch of people standing around- it was right in down town central party land at the docks, and in spring break, jammed up, I did not like that they proposed it then and still dont. Several people asked me why I scoffed at the sign and I told them about the stupid proposal, and they all agreed with me. How can an org just say no one can take anything off a wreck anymore? That is a bunch of BS. Who voted for that any how? I didnt even hear about it until it was done/
 

VOC

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

If UNESCO and its fad following Archaeologist concentrated more on the "Scientific study of material remains of past human life and activities" like they are trained and paid to do (at public expense) the world would be a much better and more informed place.

Monitoring the natural destruction of wreck sites, desk top studies, remote sensing surveys, and writing or implementing government policy is not Archaeology.

To all UNESCO thinking Archaeologists: Get on with the job we pay you to do

We want knowledge of our past more than we want material items
 

Au_Dreamers

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

bronzecannons said:
Au_Dreamers said:
"Should this underwater heritage be protected or is it acceptable to plunder?"

and he lost me right there with that narrow minded point of view...

Happy Halloween!! Got goblins to chase!

Protected from WHO? And I'm sure none of us here want to do any plundering also but there has to be some medium ground here also whereby we can study and recover it without those idiots saying we're out plundering everything.
TW
Exactly my simple point, I didn't need to read any further.
There is middle ground in this and it IS being practiced every day. It's just an elitist mentality that defines this with only those two narrow-minded options.

As I’ve posted before, in short here, practically all archaeology is about commerce in one way or another.

I’ve also posted this here before… “People should not try to box America into the politics of other countries because they do not have the same governmental structure nor the personal liberties and freedoms that we do. Of course dictators and monarchs within UNESCO believe they should have possession of their country's resources it is how their country is designed. Let's not forget that the bureaucrats of the United States are just stewards of our property. They are not the “Crown” that owns it all. When the “State of Florida” claims ownership of the historical resources within its borders it is not the entities nor individuals in Tallahassee that own it, it is EACH and EVERY citizen of the state that owns it.”

In another post here it is stated that diving on a historical wreck in the Dominican Republic is illegal. Here in the USA it is not (for now) because again we have greater liberties and freedoms than many countries by the design of our country.

It’s been said by a few Americans that the EPA and the UN are used to circumvent the US constitution and freedoms of its people. I believe this would be the case here.

Some archaeologists promote the belief that underwater artifacts will reach equilibrium with their environment and be preserved for future generations to come. Why they even state this on a State of Florida web site in reference to a salvaged cannon that is sitting roadside in the Keys. They write about the cannon deteriorating and eventual disintegration because of the past deterioration since being salvaged. All at a lost to the “people.” So if this is true would not then only the “people” that dive underwater be the “people” who get to experience that cultural heritage?

Is it because of archaeologists’ formal education that they get to choose which sites are plundered and which graves are robbed? What sites and materials are culturally important to the “peoples”?

So again I’ll ask which of these coins is historically important?

 

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Denniss

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

stevemc said:
I never bought into their BS. I remember that first year they proposed that bunk. I was in Freeport, Grand Bahama, and there was some dive shop, and it was some kind of UNESCO headquarters, and I still remember (it wasnt that long ago!) looking at the big sign showing what UNESCO stood for and what it did, and having read of their stupid rule prior, I did the horse blow, ppffffffhhhh. Out loud. A bunch of people standing around- it was right in down town central party land at the docks, and in spring break, jammed up, I did not like that they proposed it then and still dont. Several people asked me why I scoffed at the sign and I told them about the stupid proposal, and they all agreed with me. How can an org just say no one can take anything off a wreck anymore? That is a bunch of BS. Who voted for that any how? I didnt even hear about it until it was done/

It wasn't these guys, was it.

http://www.unexso.com/
 

signumops

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

Contrary to the wishes of Billary Clinton, Goold, and Karl Marx....

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-vote-to-grant-membership-to/?test=latestnews

BTW, how is it possible in Europe to dig up the dead and place their skulls on the walls of cemetaries for failure to pay the grave lease, and simultaneously keep the dead buried at sea in 'war graves', without paying some sort of annual rent to the UN?

As Pete Seeger said: "This sea is your sea, this sea is my sea, this sea belongs to you and me"
 

ivan salis

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

the fiscal reclaiming of items of value lost upon the sea aka as "cargo salvage" is a time honored profession that has been done since mankind took to the seas , in exploration and trade * yes people might have died in the wrecks * and I can understand the "protecting" of military non cargo carrying "warship" sites as a war grave -- however normal commerical shipwrecks and military cargo vessels sank during wartime that are carrying valuible items worth "reclaiming" fiscally nope , sorry folks we the living need those valuible resources -- oh folks died on them , yep no doubt about it --- but so do folks in car wrecks on the highways every single day , yet their cars that they "died" in are "reclaimed" every single day - yes those deadly car wrecks -are just towed off and scrapped for the metal contentin them --yet no one crys -- oh the horror !! about that.

if a armored car driving down a highway flipped and the driver died in the wreck -- guess what think the armored car and its cargo of money is just going to sit on the side of the road never to be touched or recovered ? just because "someone died there" --of course not , so be just logical with ships --why should a ship be any differant?
 

signumops

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

Of course, Pete Seeger did not say anything about the sea... however, he was a little pink, but, all things considered, I could identify with his championship of the landless and luckless (read commercial working salvagers, et al). The sea goes everywhere and touches everybody, like the air. It belongs to no one in particular. It is public property.

If you inadvertantly lose something while on private property, it is yours. If you lose something inadvertantly on public property, it is mine if you abandon it for me to find. You can pay me for my trouble if you want it back. See: Glomar Explorer
 

RELICDUDE07

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

I wish Florida would make even a decent website with some of the historic finds...I know they have some from different colleges with pieces of pottery & all ..I would like to see some of the better finds from the STATE.Swords /guns/cannon/ coins..It's almost like none of the wrecks ever have coins or gold! :laughing7: I'm starting to dislike them more & more for the cover up of info in my area...They take over the land & make it Fed prop. /State prop. / Bird sanctuary /Really why don't you just call them - Stay the hell out -could be a cob on the ground!
 

ivan salis

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

"your" grubbermint at work :dontknow: :icon_scratch: :help: :tongue3:
 

Salvor6

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

The "in situ" preservation thing is a joke. :laughing9: Just imagine a treasure-filled galleon in the Gulf of Mexico buried under 10 feet of sand. UNESCO wants to put an underwater camera on it and beam the image to a museum! All you would see is sand!
I think Alexandre posts this rubbish just to get our blood boiling.
 

bronzecannons

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

Salvor6 said:
The "in situ" preservation thing is a joke. :laughing9: Just imagine a treasure-filled galleon in the Gulf of Mexico buried under 10 feet of sand. UNESCO wants to put an underwater camera on it and beam the image to a museum! All you would see is sand!
I think Alexandre posts this rubbish just to get our blood boiling.

'In Situ' is nothing but a SICK joke if you ask me. Didn't Odyssey already prove that even the deep wrecks are being scattered and destroyed by fishermen dragging their deep nets all over the sea bed? So, should we just leave all the wrecks where they are so they can get destroyed by fisherman's nets? Or, just leave them all sitting on the sea bed so not even a single person can ever see those items? Give me a break, UNESCO! You're the biggest bunch of JOKERS on this planet.
TW
 

LM

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

It's the symptom of a grotesque mentality that has infected the thinking of people who are appointed or elected to govern (or those who make their living being paid by governments).

The mentality is that everything belongs to governments. They completely fail to acknowledge that the driving force behind most accomplishments- from building a house to recovering a shipwreck- isn't government. It's ambitious men of enterprise pursuing their own strain of self interest. That's what has built everything you see around you, that's what has raised the wrecks from the bottom of the ocean that we learn from today.

Their logic holds that we leave wrecks where they are because one day, some government will eventually come along to claim it in the name of a high-minded 'collective interest'. That is just patently untrue. History proves this. Governments are utterly lousy at discovering and recovering wrecks.

Idealogues are what they are. They are people who believe that a well intentioned notion is more credible than the practical, demonstrable things that actually motivate men to go out and get stuff done. We see this ideological struggle in many things, but the shipwreck issue refines it down to its essence. The facts favor the salvors, not the bureaucrats, presuming that you believe history is best in museums and not rotting away unknown under 10 feet of sand and salt water, somewhere in an ocean.

"Oh, but one day we'll send a team of archaeologists out there to find it and bring it to the surface in the name of common humanity!" goes the prayer... LOL. Yeah. They've done a fine job of that so far... This is not a slam on all archaeologists, but it is a slam on the mentality that too many of them ascribe themselves to.
 

Bill

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

LSMORGAN,
I don't know who you are, but I hope we meet somewhere. I have been trying to convince governments for over 22 years of your very profound statements. I am totally dumbfounded by the mentality of bureaucrats when it comes to shipwreck recovery and restoration. Anyone who now goes before any government official with the intention of asking for a salvage permit needs to take a copy of LSMORGAN's post.
 

Darren in NC

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Re: Should shipwrecks be left alone? (UNESCO's Convention 10 years mark)

Well said, LSMORGAN. Well said indeed.
 

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