"Protect our galleons": towards a policy of protection of underwater heritage

[Vox veritas]

http://translate.google.es/translate...%2Fari148-2011


No comment !!

[CanadianTrout]

Whoa... they are not mincing words there are they? ..

[old man]

I think the bottom of the story tells volumes.

Paul Barbara Gomez
A career diplomat, former head of the Coordination of Cultural and Scientific Relations of the AECI (Spanish Agency for International Development under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Cooperation)

[Salvor6]

This explains it all:

" It is not uncommon even in this era of global financial and economic crisis, with prices of the precious metals markets shot, listen to the hand of politicians, businessmen and ordinary citizens on foot, ideas pilgrims as pointing to the opportunity that can represent the metals hidden in the sunken galleons to strengthen national gold reserves."

Spanish politicians are only interested in filling its national coffers with gold.

[Panfilo]

It's very interesting how Mr. Pablo Barbara Gomez is worried for the protection of "Spanish" cultural patrimony, "our galleons", (give me a break!) laying in the territorial waters of third countries. Somehow he seems to have forgotten the wars of independence and some gentlemen by the names of Bolivar and San Martin and what they fought for. Some constitutions and recent Supreme Court rulings in these southern parts of "Indias" certainly see things differently, thank God, and I might add to Mr. Barabara, after reading his very one sided and narrow view of life: "Que barbaridad!!!" He seems to also have forgotten the almost total wiping out of the indigenous peoples here, more than 90% of the population died at the hand of the Spanish, many working in the same silver mines that produced the coins they intend to come and recover from our territorial waters. Interesting view of history and geopolitics.
Panfilo

[VOC]

"It has been estimated that the total sunken Spanish shipwrecks in international waters or jurisdiction of third States could reach a figure close to 8,000"

So we find an excavate 1 Spanish wreck each year that will keep us going for the next 8,000 years so I do hope insitu preservation will keep the material safe for the Archaeologist working in the year 10,011 ?

[aquanut]

"It has been estimated that the total sunken Spanish shipwrecks in international waters or jurisdiction of third States could reach a figure close to 8,000"

So we find an excavate 1 Spanish wreck each year that will keep us going for the next 8,000 years so I do hope insitu preservation will keep the material safe for the Archaeologist working in the year 10,011 ?

Although I've had this in the back of my mind, it's really funny to hear it said OUT LOUD!

[jadeblackhawk]

So... Spain is upset they are salvaging gold and silver they stole in the first place? Talk about pots and kettles.

I say they should get the ship, and return the metals to the people they got them from.

[capt dom]

The Spanish folks charged a pretty hefty fee
to teach indigenous peoples of the New World about the "big guy"....

I have some great bronze "Lazarus Crosses" that were recovered
from the sea, the Spanish were kind
enough to provide the heathen folks of the Americas,
while unburdening them of
their silver and gold.....

Our 21st century economics have reverted to
a mixture of 10th century Feudalism
with 21st Century Fascism...
governments now support governments
without regard to the cattle that
have put them in power....

When is everyone going to take their heads out of the sand?

[Teredo Navalis]

Panfilo,
I support and echo your feelings. But as I mentioned in another post, many ruling elite in powerful positions in Central and South America are proud of their Spanish origins and can trace family back to the continent over 500 years. As is common in Colonialism throughout world history, indigenous peoples often die from the hand and disease of the invader. They are usually subjugated and have a difficult time controlling governments at all levels. Central and South America is studded with Spanish families of extreme wealth and power, even if not directly involved in politics.
Contemporaneously, Nelson Mandela stands out for his resilience and changing this trend, albeit in a different continent.

[Au_Dreamers]

"It has been estimated that the total sunken Spanish shipwrecks in international waters or jurisdiction of third States could reach a figure close to 8,000"

So we find an excavate 1 Spanish wreck each year that will keep us going for the next 8,000 years so I do hope insitu preservation will keep the material safe for the Archaeologist working in the year 10,011 ?

Although I've had this in the back of my mind, it's really funny to hear it said OUT LOUD!

HERE HERE!!

So the ships are protected for whom?

I’m a private sector salvor and proud of it.

Why just today in a very rural area a person noticed the “Spanish” Piece of Eight on my necklace and asked about it.

So I gave them a history lesson in Spanish and American historical culture.

I will paraphrase some of their responses. “Why you are the most fascinating person I’ve ever met in my life. I never knew of or heard of anything like that.

My ego aside, this is just a fairly common occurrence that happens ONLY because I am a private sector salvor.

Most of the people would not experience that part of Spanish and American historical culture otherwise. Also, most of the people that I encounter that know of it, know of it because of Mel Fisher, not a government museum or snobby archaeologist. I would guess that my being a private sector salvor has allowed well over a thousand different people from all over the world to experience history.

Not tooting my own horn, multiply this times the multitudes of other private sector salvors and private citizens that have purchased “treasure jewelry” (mostly because of contact with private sector salvors) and literally you have thousands of walking museums and vestibules of historical knowledge. One never knows what spark might be ignited in a person touched by it.

So again I ask, if it is for “the people” then isn’t the best course of action the action that allows the most amount of people to experience it?

[Panfilo]

Teredo:
I believe you are confusing two very different issues, our love for the Spanish heritage, culture and its very kind and friendly people and the proposal made by a very select group of fanatics that the wrecks that lie in our territorial waters belong to them. Two distinct subjects that should not be confused. Colombia's constitution, for instance in its Article 73 states that cultural patrimony in our territorial waters, contiguous zone, EEZ and continental shelf belong to Colombia not to Spain, no matter how much we love our ancestry or its people.
Panfilo

[ivan salis]

there are many spanish wrecks in developing nations waters--*(really I'm shocked by that statement) isn't that because the spanish invaded and enslaved the locals of those areas in the past forcing them to mine "the local area " gold and silver deposits to be loaded upon "spanish" ships to be taken back home to spain ? -- if so how is this differant than the nazis looting of art and valuibles by using and enslaving the local population of the areas they " militarily controlled" during WW2 ? - after all they "militarily" took over by right of arms same as the spanish did --why is it ok for spain to keep its "plunder" and not ok for the nazi's to do the same ? --- its my belief that any spanish wreck in the territorial waters of any former spanish colony that freed its self from spain by war --belongs to the "independant nation" who's waters it is in as "war booty" --much the way the coins that made it to spains shore safely are spains via them "claiming" it as their "historical heritage" -- the south americans can also lay claim to the coins , silver and gold and shipwrecks in their waters as part of their "culturial heritage" as well --two can play that game. --and the local govts have the "right" to decide what they want to do with "their" wrecks without being bullied by outsiders and UN agreements they are not parties to

many of these types of agreements limit what developing counties can and can not do with their own resources * often international "development" funding is withheld UNLESS the developing counties "get on board" by signing these restrictive agreements -- it is in big money's long term interest (control of resources) in most cases to set up these "policys" and make these agreements in most cases.

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Teredo:
I believe you are confusing two very different issues, our love for the Spanish heritage, culture and its very kind and friendly people and the proposal made by a very select group of fanatics that the wrecks that lie in our territorial waters belong to them. Two distinct subjects that should not be confused. Colombia's constitution, for instance in its Article 73 states that cultural patrimony in our territorial waters, contiguous zone, EEZ and continental shelf belong to Colombia not to Spain, no matter how much we love our ancestry or its people.
Panfilo

Panfilo, what if the ship came from Peru ( as it is know now) and the silver from Bolivia ? But sunk in ,what is now Colombia's waters.
Ossy

[Teredo Navalis]

Ossy,
Good question. The Central and South American Countries have yet to fight this battle or debate the answer in a pure case where a Spanish Galleon (with armament/warship) was identified. Peru and wealthy families have challenged the Mercedes/Black Swan Case with OMEX, even lying off the coast of Spain/Europe.

Panfilo,
You may be surprised to find the government in Colombia and it's Cultural Antiquities Committee, is very pro Spain and very pro UNESCO. It has drafted new legislation over the past 6 months that hasn't been finalized. Be interested if you have sources that say otherwise.

[Panfilo]

Ossy, interesting point you make but not too complicated to respond. Indeed ships like the San Jose were carrying cargo from the South Sea’s Armada, Chile, Peru, Bolivia on its way to Cartagena. Colombia’s Constitution states that those objects are Colombian patrimony as has the Supreme Court in the Sea Search Armada case so if Peru or Bolivia want to claim them as they have the Mercedes, they can but with little or no chance to prosper. Spain on the other hand will run into a very complicated scenario if they have the gall to show up and claim the silver as their patrimony. We shall see what they do.
Teredo: Please don’t confuse the “Government”, the Commission of Underwater Antiquities and the intellectuals at the Ministry of Culture. They are not all in the same bag nor do they think and act alike. I have the highest respect not only the “Government” members as a whole but for the Commission members, very loyal, educated and patriotic bunch. Can’t say the same for the MOC fanatics, cultural Ayatollahs and UNESCO advocates who have a very specific agenda that has made many of us suspicious. No surprises there Terredo (regarding the Spanish loving burocrats at the MOC) for me or anybody that has been actively involved in this process as I have. Sadly these types of cultural intellectuals are found in most countries and think and act alike, they don’t allow for dialogue or discussions, they believe to be morally superior and own the “truth”. You don’t want to try and convince them of anything.
Panfilo

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Ossy, interesting point you make but not too complicated to respond. Indeed ships like the San Jose were carrying cargo from the South Sea’s Armada, Chile, Peru, Bolivia on its way to Cartagena. Colombia’s Constitution states that those objects are Colombian patrimony as has the Supreme Court in the Sea Search Armada case so if Peru or Bolivia want to claim them as they have the Mercedes, they can but with little or no chance to prosper. Spain on the other hand will run into a very complicated scenario if they have the gall to show up and claim the silver as their patrimony. We shall see what they do.
Teredo: Please don’t confuse the “Government”, the Commission of Underwater Antiquities and the intellectuals at the Ministry of Culture. They are not all in the same bag nor do they think and act alike. I have the highest respect not only the “Government” members as a whole but for the Commission members, very loyal, educated and patriotic bunch. Can’t say the same for the MOC fanatics, cultural Ayatollahs and UNESCO advocates who have a very specific agenda that has made many of us suspicious. No surprises there Terredo (regarding the Spanish loving burocrats at the MOC) for me or anybody that has been actively involved in this process as I have. Sadly these types of cultural intellectuals are found in most countries and think and act alike, they don’t allow for dialogue or discussions, they believe to be morally superior and own the “truth”. You don’t want to try and convince them of anything.
Daniel

Panfilo, Let me get this right IF a ship sinks in your territorial waters it belongs to that country regardless of who owned it and
were it came from and also its goods.
Ossy

[Panfilo]

Let’s not confuse chicken salad with chicken $#!T. Never said that Ossy, please don’t put explosive words in my mouth I did not profess. Ships are one thing, it’s cargo another. Sovereign ships are one thing, commercial ships another. Sovereign ships in a military mission are one thing, sovereign ships in a commercial mission, another. Are we clear here?
If Spain wants to come and claim its sovereign ships that sunk in our waters, so long as they were not in a commercial mission, that is perfectly fine and I see no problem with that. Welcome. Now, coming here to claim the gold and silver that was privately owned like they are trying to pull in a US court, not likely for many legal and political reasons. Am we clear here too Ossy?
Regarding Peru claiming the silver as their “patrimony”, hypothetically that is, unlikely to win as suppose let’s say it’s the San Jose, in 1708 the Republic of Peru did not exist as Colombia as such neither. Several years after our independence (200 years ago last week) Colombia signed the Cucuta Convention and it was agreed that all of Spain’s possessions in this former colony from that moment on belong to Colombia. So, if the Spanish colonial wrecks in Nueva Grabadan waters were Spanish, after the Convention they became Colombian. OK?
Panfilo.

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Si Panfilo, I'm glad you cleared it up No disrespect meant .
The San Jose, was it a sovereign ship or a commercial ship ? I appreciate your knowledge
Ossy

[Panfilo]

No disrespect taken Ossy, a valid question more so in these turbulent nautical times. The San Jose was in a commercial mission when it was atacked by the British. During most of the Spanish colonial era most of the commerce was transported aboard war ships, the "Flota" system was designed for this. Now if you take say the Santisima Trinidad that sank during Trafalgar in 1805 in a clearly naval battle that is sovereign ship in a military mission, no doubt.
Panfilo