10th anniversary of the Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural

[Darren in NC]

The "trouble" with your approach, Darren, is that the only wrecks you would be putting under the scientific lens of "archaeology" would be the treasure carrying ones.

No trouble at all. There are people who work everyday with the motive of profit, and still benefit the public with a service or product. There are those who work for nonprofits and also do the same. By your definition, we should throw out every service or product with the motive of profit and only keep nonprofit services and products. I don't see the "trouble" you mention, for indeed it happens everyday. Why don't we outlaw profit companies in general?

Who would "fund" the excavation of an 1812 sloop, of an horse ferryboat, of a canal barge? Maybe the "archies"...

Great! Go for it! No one is stopping you and you shouldn't stop others for their preferred projects.

I, as a Portuguese, have a problem with the "salvors" that have wrecked apart countless scores of suspected Portuguese and Spanish ships, worldwide, in search for a fast buck, leaving no knowledge behind

I, as a human being, share the same sentiment.

...(but, usually, a trail of naive investors who also loose their money over a pie in the sky illusion.. I would love to see the numbers on the Fisher's operation, the ratio of invested money versus the revenues they have generated...)

There are scores of hucksters in the salvage business. There are scores of con men in humanity. I'll bet there's even a few bottom feeders among the degree-toting archaeological community. Can you name a group that is free from scam artists?

Now, answer the question that has been asked - what is morally wrong with selling a duplicate artifact that we have enormous quantities of for study, research and public display? What is your real "trouble" with this? I'm genuinely curious.

 

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[Alexandre]

Bum Luck... I see how much they are making... but I would like to see, also, how much was invested in the Fisher venture since the beggining.

 

[Alexandre]

Darren, please read Filipe's words:

http://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/index_treasurehunters.htm

most notably, here:

http://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/treasurehunters_04faqs.htm

I abide by them, too.

 

[Darren in NC]

Treasure Hunting - Frequently Asked Questions

Who are the frequent "askers" of these questions? Indoctrinated students?

1. Can treasure hunters do archaeology with high standards?

No.

I guess that settles it.

...and companies that try to follow good archaeological standards will not survive long in any informed market.

Hmmm...spoken like an expert in informed markets.

2. Can archaeologists and treasure hunters work together?

No. Like any other professionals, archaeologists are bound by a deontological code. No deontological code accepts archaeologists selling artifacts to pay for the excavations. And no deontological code allows archaeologists to lower their standards of practice so that their bosses can make a better profit.

Deontological Code: Code set forth by the opinion of Filipe Castro. No other trained archaeologist with the same credentials and passion for historical preservation can possibly qualify if in disagreement with this opinion.

3. Can archaeology be conducted by private organizations?

Yes. The Institute of Nautical Archaeology is a good example. Entirely private, the Institute of Nautical Archaeology has pioneered the field of underwater archaeology for over three decades without ever selling one artifact.

Wonderful feat.

4. Why should archaeological collections be kept together?

For several important reasons:

Because artifacts are normally part of assemblages and alone are frequently meaningless;

Normally part of assemblages. So how about those artifacts that are not "normal?"

Because artifacts are always different from many points of view;

So NOW we want to respect differing views?

Because the study of assemblages of artifacts is always evolving;

Because as technology evolves artifacts can yield more information if tested with new techniques;

This doesn't cover the non-normal pieces.

And because there is no need to sell them.

Oh, uh...okay.

5. Should less developed countries allow treasure hunting ventures in their waters when they cannot afford a high standard of archaeology?

This is one of the most preposterous arguments of many treasure hunting companies and representatives. This argument implies that poorer nations should not aim for development, education, or environmental protection (and their cultural heritage is directly related to these aspects).

I have been in this business for 20 years and I have never heard a salvager say this. Very misleading to say it's a primary argument of many thunters.

6. Are shipwrecks a scarce resource?

Yes. A very scarce one. Only a certain number of ships were lost in each period, by each culture. To destroy them all now is to destroy the hope that future generations may look at their cultural heritage with their own eyes.

No one is advocating to destroy them - that will happen outside the law and moreso within the laws that protect and promote dredging.

7. Given the fact that sometimes, if not protected, shipwrecks can be looted by sport divers, destroyed by fishing trawlers, or just decay with time, should it not be advisable to allow treasure hunters to salvage them?

No. To allow the salvage of shipwrecks is to add an additional factor of destruction to those above mentioned. It is a fallacy to pretend that treasure hunters would only aim at shipwrecks in danger of being destroyed by nature, fishing trawlers, or sport divers.

No comment needed here...

8. Are treasure hunters a real threat to underwater cultural heritage?

Yes. Many shipwrecks have been systematically destroyed by treasure hunters searching for valuables. We know far more about the Roman and Viking vessels than we know about Iberian vessels, so violent has been the destruction of these ships by treasure hunters.

What we know about Iberian vessels is largely due to salvagers who hired archies. Until the 1970s, the archaeological community didn't believe in underwater archaeology as a science. The salvagers initiated it.

9. Is treasure hunting really profitable as an investment?

No. There are two types of treasure hunters. There is a small, silent minority who really finds and rescues precious cargoes, and that goes largely unnoticed by the general public. The large, noisy majority who advertises its activity in the press, on the internet, and through PR agencies in search of ignorant investors rarely rewards its investors. P. T. Barnum once said that "a sucker is born every minute," and sadly many treasure hunting companies have ravaged the finances of many ill-informed investors who found it exciting to go search for sunken treasures in exotic seas.

I answered the "huckster" question earlier.

10. Is there a future for treasure hunting?

No. More and more countries are forbidding this activity in their national waters. Also, most museums have adopted a ban on the purchase of items salvaged from shipwrecks.

Drive it underground if you will, but it will always be in the future...with more lost than gained. Sad indeed.

 

[old man]

If you desire to reason with me, at least be reasonable. Compare slavery to salvage? Apples and oranges, Sherlock.

I have no problem with #3 if you found the wreck and that's how you want to approach it. But give me the same freedom to apply a funding approach along with archaeology if I find the wreck.

To be clear, I do not endorse a "smash and grab" approach to salvage as an option. Most salvagers do not. Sound archaeology and published works should accompany any project for the benefit of the general public (not to impress my peers who will be the only ones reading in exclusive publications).

Darren,
I personally don't think that Alenandre and his sort can be reasonable. You and I as well as most posters on this board know of numerous wrecks that we have dove on. Some are Spanish some are Privateers. I have yet to see Alexandre or his contemporaries come forward to find out where these wrecks are so that they can PROPERLY (Their Term), Document these wrecks. The reason being in my opinion. Because Treasure has never been reported to be found on these wrecks ( or reported to be found ). To me that just smacks of GREED. If they are so interested in Cultural Patrimoney they would be getting in touch with anyone that found a new wreck.

I've dove on wrecks in the Carribbean that host Countries knew nothing about. One of those Countries was given the locations of several wrecks and they are currently being studied by that Country. I applauded them for there work. I doubt that you will see representatives of that County at Alexandres Convention. Because what they are doing is what Alexandre and his mob should be doing. They are looking at Cultural Patrimony. Not looking to Loot Wrecks that only carry gold and silver.
Talk about the Kettle Calling the pot BLACK. Alexandre and his peers are nothing but grave robbers out looting wrecks with tax payers money. At least Private Salvors are involved in a business that creates jobs to help the economy. Tries to make a profit and puts artifacts in tyhe hands of Private citizens and Museums. I've yet to see the State of Florida put any on display for the public to see. I've heard that many millions of dollars of artifacts have actually disappeared from storage. I image that has happened in every Country of the World. And Government Officals call private salvors Pirates.

 

[capt dom]

Like I said...
"The Rats are Guarding the Cheese!"

 

[Trembull]

Like I said...
"The Rats are Guarding the Cheese!"

 

[VOC]

Alexandre

Unfortunatally your option 3 would only work on a very small scale and would never become the way forward for the thousands of wrecks that needs to be recorded.

The INA although good, has not acheived that much in the big scheme of things.

At least you are having the debate with the oposing sides of the argument, that is far more than most of your contemporaries would ever do, so I have to applaud you for that.

The big problem is this subject has never been debated properly and both sides have become polarised without each side being fully understood.

 

[Darren in NC]

The big problem is this subject has never been debated properly and both sides have become polarised without each side being fully understood.

I respectfully disagree. At least reputable salvagers strive to include archaeology because we are not polarized. We strive to offer a great benefit to the public. It's only the scam artists that the archies point at. They exist on both sides. For instance, I have friends who are certified and "degreed archies." They tell me to be careful about using their names due to being ostracized by their peers and their jobs threatened. Most archies are willing to work with salvagers, but simply can't due to political pressure.

Again, from Filipe Castro...

2. Can archaeologists and treasure hunters work together?

No. Like any other professionals, archaeologists are bound by a deontological code. No deontological code accepts archaeologists selling artifacts to pay for the excavations. And no deontological code allows archaeologists to lower their standards of practice so that their bosses can make a better profit.

No, they can't work together due to their jobs being on the line.

So who exactly is polarized?

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

The "trouble" with your approach, Darren, is that the only wrecks you would be putting under the scientific lens of "archaeology" would be the treasure carrying ones.

Who would "fund" the excavation of an 1812 sloop, of an horse ferryboat, of a canal barge? Maybe the "archies"...

Unfortunately, the majority of treasure carrying ships tend to be Iberian ones.

I, as a Portuguese, have a problem with the "salvors" that have wrecked apart countless scores of suspected Portuguese and Spanish ships, worldwide, in search for a fast buck, leaving no knowledge behind (but, usually, a trail of naive investors who also loose their money over a pie in the sky illusion.. I would love to see the numbers on the Fisher's operation, the ratio of invested money versus the revenues they have generated...)

well said
Ossy

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

The rats are still guarding the cheese!

It still really funny how these stiffs refer to one of the most inhumane
periods of colonial expansion as "cultural heritage".....\

The may think their ship doesn't sink but I am sure
there will be s serious Oder at this get-to-gather...

And you are selling it for your own profit You must be really upset, by as you say
the most inhumane periods of colonial expansion !
Ossy

 

[capt dom]

I don't understand your comment.

We sell artifacts that are divided back to us, based upon
the fruits of our labor and the risks and merit of our efforts.

I am over the Spanish occupation of the New World resulting in the extermination
of over 11 civilizations in the name of the BIG GUY. I am also over the poor
native americans getting screwed but coming up with the term "cultural patrimony"
is just so much bull crap!

 

[Alexandre]

Old man, you mean treasure like this?

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

I don't understand your comment.

We sell artifacts that are divided back to us, based upon
the fruits of our labor and the risks and merit of our efforts.

I am over the Spanish occupation of the New World resulting in the extermination
of over 11 civilizations in the name of the BIG GUY. I am also over the poor
native americans getting screwed but coming up with the term "cultural patrimony"
is just so much bull crap!

So the coins you dig up from the Ark Angel, Silver from Peru ! You have sent some back to the native Indians or some % of your take
You wouldn't want the native americans getting screwed some more, would you now.
Ossy

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Old man, you mean treasure like this?

Nice Alexandre, are these from the wreck in Africa.
Ossy

 

[Alexandre]

They are, Ossy.

Unfortunately for the defendants of the "exploited native peoples", all this gold, before it was coined, was bartered by the Portuguese with the natives from Ghana and Mauritania in Arguim and Mina, against copper items and textiles from the South of Portugal and Morroco...

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

They are, Ossy.

Unfortunately for the defendants of the "exploited native peoples", all this gold, before it was coined, was bartered by the Portuguese with the natives from Ghana and Mauritania in Arguim and Mina, against copper items and textiles from the South of Portugal and Morroco...

Who has them now? Are they planing to put on display.
Ossy

 

[old man]

They are, Ossy.

Unfortunately for the defendants of the "exploited native peoples", all this gold, before it was coined, was bartered by the Portuguese with the natives from Ghana and Mauritania in Arguim and Mina, against copper items and textiles from the South of Portugal and Morroco...

Alexandre, Nice coins. But if you and your peers are so interested in Cultural Patrimony ? Why are you after wrecks with gold, where there are hundreds of thousands of IDENTICAL ITEMS ? Why aren't you out looking for navigation instruments and other Cultural Patrimony that shows how ships navigated the world or incold water where a ship may be somewhat intact Could it just be the Greed that you accuse the Private Sector salvor of doing ?

 

[capt dom]

So the coins you dig up from the Ark Angel, Silver from Peru ! You have sent some back to the native Indians or some % of your take
You wouldn't want the native americans getting screwed some more, would you now.
Ossy
[/quote]

Just so happens we have... here in this photos we are
showing, then giving some coins
to the miners in a mine in Potosi where the silver actually
came from and where they where some {not all of them, by the way} of them were
minted. We also have recovered coins from Colombia
and Mexico.

Maybe the State of Florida should be convinced by your cronies
to give some of what they take from us
back to indigenous folks?

 

[Alexandre]

Why am I looking for a treasure ship, old man?

For 7 main reasons:

1) because none was ever excavated by archaeologists, which will be a scientific breakthough;

2) because a Spanish ship of that time and period was never excavated and, thus, finding one will fill in a void in nautical history of Iberian ships;

3) because I tracked down it's whole story in the archives and thus can complete it with the archaeological recording of it's remains;

4) because I want to show that archaeologists can do a much, much better job, with that treasure than any treasure hunter would do, finally showing how treasures are better treated under UNESCO CPUH than with Admiralty salvage law;

5) because I want to get Spain and Portugal together, both signers of the UNESCO CPUH, on an common project;

6) because I am having a lot of fun with this project of mine;

7) and, finally, I want to appear in National Geographic, with a gold bar tagged as any archaeological find - from a ceramic shred to an astrolabe, to musket shot, to a ballast stone - would be tagged. After all, it's just gold, as cultural heritage as an olive jar.


As a side remark, let me say that some of my peers are not that enthusiastic with my public proclamation that I am going for a treasure ship. It seems that treasure is taboo in some archaeological circles...