10th anniversary of the Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural

MORE AND BEYOND OSSY

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Alexandre said:
Why am I looking for a treasure ship, old man?

For 7 main reasons:

1) because none was ever excavated by archaeologists, which will be a scientific breakthough;

2) because a Spanish ship of that time and period was never excavated and, thus, finding one will fill in a void in nautical history of Iberian ships;

3) because I tracked down it's whole story in the archives and thus can complete it with the archaeological recording of it's remains;

4) because I want to show that archaeologists can do a much, much better job, with that treasure than any treasure hunter would do, finally showing how treasures are better treated under UNESCO CPUH than with Admiralty salvage law;

5) because I want to get Spain and Portugal together, both signers of the UNESCO CPUH, on an common project;

6) because I am having a lot of fun with this project of mine;

7) and, finally, I want to appear in National Geographic, with a gold bar tagged as any archaeological find - from a ceramic shred to an astrolabe, to musket shot, to a ballast stone - would be tagged. After all, it's just gold, as cultural heritage as an olive jar. ;)


As a side remark, let me say that some of my peers are not that enthusiastic with my public proclamation that I am going for a treasure ship. It seems that treasure is taboo in some archaeological circles... ;)
[/quote Great to hear Alexandre, it could not be in better hands :thumbsup:
When do you expect to start your project.
Ossy
 

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Alexandre

Alexandre

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MORE AND BEYOND OSSY said:
Great to hear Alexandre, it could not be in better hands :thumbsup:
When do you expect to start your project.
Ossy

It has already started... and there are 2 wrecks already on our hands. But will only pick tempo next year, with the remote survey. In the meantime, I have to go to Ozzieland for my PhD... ;)
 

VOC

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Alexandre

Your reasons for excavating your wreck:

1) Because none was ever excavated by archaeologists, which will be a scientific breakthrough;

This should read

1) Because none was ever excavated by a "Government Paid" archaeologists, which will be a scientific breakthrough;

Many Spanish wrecks have been excavated with both professional and "A" Vocational (just hate that term) underwater archaeologist as part of the team.

With regards to the other post your option 3 is fine in an ideal world but totally unrealistic in the real world where thousands of wrecks need recording.

Although the INA has done some good work, what they have done is miniscule in comparison to what the private and self-funded sector has done elsewhere.

The whole UNESCO thinking has come about by bureaucrats saying we have not got the money to do anything so we will stop anyone else doing anything as we don’t want the private sector using up our limited budget on conservation and display of items that they recover.

If the Underwater Archaeologist worked with the private sector more (like they do on land) governments would be far more likely to allocate money to the paid archaeologist to oversee and manage the various projects.

When most known sites are left in-situ for so called preservation, heritage bodies will reduce their spend on underwater archaeology down to a few officials to monitor policy and maybe one small team for wreck monitoring, this will also have a knock on effect with universities having to drop underwater archaeology degree courses as so few jobs will exist.

Unfortunately most professionals now working in Underwater Archaeology have not been around long enough or worked on enough sites to fully understand the underwater projects that they are administering, and it is even worse when you get to bureaucrat level where most have them have never been in the water let alone worked on a historic wreck.

As for statements about profit being a motive, nearly every guy I have worked with or spoken too is primarily motivated by history and only sell duplications to fund further excavation and conservation, even the big operators have a financial shortfall and need sponsors/investers buying into a dream to fund the operation.

You are probably one of the first archaeologist to stick their heads above the parapet and have a discussion on the subject with people with a different view as most of your peers would never engage in such debate so I applaud you for that and your work on your Treasure Wrecks (nice to see the miners with their coin pendants reminds me of real treasure wrecks !)
 

Bum Luck

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Alexandre said:
Bum Luck... I see how much they are making... but I would like to see, also, how much was invested in the Fisher venture since the beggining.

I was a Fisher investor, and I have no complaints. I've met Mel and most of the staff, and I think the world of them. Not so with most archaeologists I've met, with some notable exceptions. The worst are the 'contact archaeologists', who will even countenance the destruction of sites for the price of their contracts, traitors of history, ala Judas Iscariot.

Say, how much has been 'invested' in the Spanish government in the last 5 centuries?

And when you criticize private salvors for the destruction of sites, how about the destruction of this?

hm4_1_34_4_big.jpg


ddbaa045.jpg


gold.jpg


Entire rooms of golden history, not to mention unique manuscripts, objects of art, and worst of all - the destruction of an entire hemisphere of culture and peoples.

All of this gigantic machine of systematic destruction bent to one object over the centuries - the funding of limitless greed, religious wars and petty jealousies.

Not much of a moral argument for Spain, eh?
 

wecandigit

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Agreed that Spain created massive destruction and death in gathering their plunder they loaded on the galleons. If they were not experiencing a collapse of their economy, they might not be so eager to pick the pockets of salvor companys. What next? A return of the Cobs found by MD'ers on Florida's Treasure Coast too?
 

Bum Luck

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wecandigit said:
Agreed that Spain created massive destruction and death in gathering their plunder they loaded on the galleons. If they were not experiencing a collapse of their economy, they might not be so eager to pick the pockets of salvor companys. What next? A return of the Cobs found by MD'ers on Florida's Treasure Coast too?

Destruction on a planetary scale versus literally pocket change?

Thanks for the "Gimme".
 

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Alexandre

Alexandre

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VOC said:
Alexandre


The whole UNESCO thinking has come about by bureaucrats saying we have not got the money to do anything so we will stop anyone else doing anything as we don’t want the private sector using up our limited budget on conservation and display of items that they recover.

If the Underwater Archaeologist worked with the private sector more (like they do on land) governments would be far more likely to allocate money to the paid archaeologist to oversee and manage the various projects.

When most known sites are left in-situ for so called preservation, heritage bodies will reduce their spend on underwater archaeology down to a few officials to monitor policy and maybe one small team for wreck monitoring, this will also have a knock on effect with universities having to drop underwater archaeology degree courses as so few jobs will exist.

Unfortunately most professionals now working in Underwater Archaeology have not been around long enough or worked on enough sites to fully understand the underwater projects that they are administering, and it is even worse when you get to bureaucrat level where most have them have never been in the water let alone worked on a historic wreck.

As for statements about profit being a motive, nearly every guy I have worked with or spoken too is primarily motivated by history and only sell duplications to fund further excavation and conservation, even the big operators have a financial shortfall and need sponsors/investers buying into a dream to fund the operation.


VOC

Can I use you above quotes for my presentation tomorrow?
 

VOC

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"Can I use you above quotes for my presentation tomorrow?"

Please, Please do, someone needs to tell them the big mistake that they are making.
 

bigscoop

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I have a question I've always wanted to ask in regards to these underwater controlled arch efforts. Mind you, I know absolutely zero about any of it other then what I've read, but I have always found the underwater recovery of these lost histories to be fascinating. But here's my question:

I've often wondered just how much of this recovered history ends up in the personal collections of the very people who support the notion that all of these treasures should belong to the people? Just curious. Is this something that is common place within these communities?
 

Bum Luck

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bigscoop said:
I have a question I've always wanted to ask in regards to these underwater controlled arch efforts. Mind you, I know absolutely zero about any of it other then what I've read, but I have always found the underwater recovery of these lost histories to be fascinating. But here's my question:

I've often wondered just how much of this recovered history ends up in the personal collections of the very people who support the notion that all of these treasures should belong to the people? Just curious. Is this something that is common place within these communities?

Archies: A lot of the recovered artifacts end up in boxes, never to be seen again; no money or place to display them. Thefts (disappearance) of artifacts by museum staff are fairly common. Archeological reports (the supposed product of their research) ends up hard to get or actually secret (they're really an elitist group), so what did the public actually gain?

T hunters: I think that a lot of the "splashy" artifacts (ala Mel Fisher and Barry Clifford) end up on private display, and a lot of, really, insignificant artifacts (like Spanish cobs) end up in private collections. I've got a few myself.

This is my opinion, but I have a lot of time spent on both sides.
 

Bum Luck

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MORE AND BEYOND OSSY said:
Bum Luck wrote: Insignificant artifacts ( like Spanish cobs) :icon_scratch: Tell that to Mel Fisher group.
Ossy

There you have it.

They have to have every one.

I have several from Mel, with his blessing, but apparently not yours.
 

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Alexandre

Alexandre

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Spanish and Portuguese underwater archaeologists having a working meeting in Brussels and deciding on how best to tackle the issue of Ibearian ships being trashed for salvage.. ;)
 

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gord

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And like all other pirates/plunderers/salvors, the archies are getting trashed for salvage. I understand Belgian beer is good for that.
 

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Alexandre

Alexandre

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gord said:
And like all other pirates/plunderers/salvors, the archies are getting trashed for salvage. I understand Belgian beer is good for that.

Actually, Belgian chocolats and beer are a bit overrated.

Duvel beer was ok, but give me an Heinekein any day. Our even our own Sagres. :)
 

VOC

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"Spanish and Portuguese underwater archaeologists having a working meeting in Brussels and deciding on how best to tackle the issue of Iberian ships being trashed for salvage"

That’s an easy one to resolve

We will leave the drinking and talking on tax payer’s funds to your group, and you can leave the recovery, recording, conservation and publication to us and the private sector.

It will not be long before you have to start recovering artefacts just to pay off your Euro debts, so you may want to keep that photo as a reminder of your last free Jolly on the state.

Hope you have a great Christmas, and if you feel like buying me a good will present anything from www.melfisher.com will go down nicely !
 

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Alexandre

Alexandre

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VOC said:
"Spanish and Portuguese underwater archaeologists having a working meeting in Brussels and deciding on how best to tackle the issue of Iberian ships being trashed for salvage"

It will not be long before you have to start recovering artefacts just to pay off your Euro debts, so you may want to keep that photo as a reminder of your last free Jolly on the state.


Last time I heard, the US of A was also in the triple digit "debt to GDP" club, with a total debt of $15,131,979,264,288,80...


BTW: we had a Greek in that photo (we were just missing an Italian and an Irishman)
 

VOC

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How did the Greek guy get there, he must have sold some antiquity to get his air fare !

In the very unlikely event Spain wins the Mercedes case you could use the coins in Iberia as your currency as your Euro's are not going to be worth their scrap value very shortly.

It might be worth stashing some of the coins from your wreck as you might need them in Lieu of wages before too long.

Luckily I am not in the states either.
 

MORE AND BEYOND OSSY

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Bum Luck said:
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY said:
Bum Luck wrote: Insignificant artifacts ( like Spanish cobs) :icon_scratch: Tell that to Mel Fisher group.
Ossy

There you have it.

They have to have every one.

I have several from Mel, with his blessing, but apparently not yours.
Never said that ! I was making a point, that Spanish cobs are very important artifacts :read2:
I have coins from the Atocha and i'm glad you have as well.
Ossy
 

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