1715 FLEET - WHAT DO WE KNOW?

[stevemc]

Yes, I have read that and several other translations or variations of the story. All state it was purposfully wrecked or scuttled. Some state it was burned to hide it, since it was still above water. None state that it ever moved when salvaging it. Some state that it was partially covered by sand on subsequent returns to salvage, and or that the floats were gone, but they found it quickly. There really arent any landmarks in that area to triangulate on, or werent back in those days. Sandy Cay is a ways down South, too far. I am sure they could position off it from a crows nest, but that is only 1 position. But could be estimated as a sort of position indicator. Memory Rock light was not there either of course. Just the rise up the bank. I am sure that a hurricane could move the 100s of tons of treasure around, as it has over the years, since the treasure has been found spread miles both North and South of the original find area. Chuck Boyd is a personal friend of mine, and he was the main diver for Herbo in the 80s when they worked it, and he said everywhere they went, there was treasure, they could move miles and still find it, there did not seem to be an actual motherload spot, although it seems 1 area held a lot more stuff than any othe area. And they were still finding treasure the day Herbos mom told them to come home. She was the money behind it all. The gulf stream current is not near as powerful near shore as in the actual stream itself. In fact on both the area of the Maravillas and at Jupiter inlet, when the tide stops (normal 4 tides a day tides,) or turns, the current also stops, there isnt much at all of the actual Northbound Gulf Stream current in those places, I have dove both areas many times. When you get offshore a few miles it starts getting stronger though. When on the Little Bahama Bank in the area of the Maravillas, the only current you feel is the incoming or outgoing currents of the tides. Like I said, when it stops, there is little to no current. Both sides of the Gulf Stream, the farther you go out, the stronger it gets.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Upgraded Night Vision Monocular Digital Infrared Monocular Telescope for 100% Darkness with 8X Zoom - Grab it through Amazon!

[cornelis 816]

Where did the stern-castle go ? Cornelius

 

[old man]

Where did the stern-castle go ? Cornelius

Cornelius, My WAG is north about 2 miles.

 

[saltydog1733]

Shawman, I disagree on two counts.

1) The storm did hit St Augustine. There is archival records that mention that the residents of St Augustine had little food to offer the survivors of the 1715 fleet as the same storm that destroyed he fleet, also destroyed their crops.

2) There is also testimony from seasoned sailors who survived the storm saying something to the effect "the likes of it they had never seen before" and that the "sea came at them like arrows"

The hurricane destroyed a fleet of 11 ships...I think that is a good indication too of a pretty strong hurricane.

Salty

 

[Shawmen]

Shawman, I disagree on two counts.

1) The storm did hit St Augustine. There is archival records that mention that the residents of St Augustine had little food to offer the survivors of the 1715 fleet as the same storm that destroyed he fleet, also destroyed their crops.

2) There is also testimony from seasoned sailors who survived the storm saying something to the effect "the likes of it they had never seen before" and that the "sea came at them like arrows"

The hurricane destroyed a fleet of 11 ships...I think that is a good indication too of a pretty strong hurricane.

Salty

Salty~
Gotta disagree with you on one main point, and I will find and post the source where I found it, that folks up in St. Auggie never experienced any effects of a hurricane further south...And also of the Grifon crew recounting the same...If your research indicates otherwise, please post your source.

As far as your second and final observations go regarding the strength of the storm, I am in total agreement...it was one helluva storm. My original post was merely speculating on the size/track of the storm, NOT it's intensity. My personal opinion is that it was probably a compact Cat3, and I say that because if it was anything stronger, considering the age/construction/overloading of the vessels involved, there probably wouldn't have been enough survivors to recount this common plight, as they would've been splashed in deeper waters.
Once again, Cornelius' "The Wind" thread was a great discussion on the data/theories/opinions regarding track/position/intensity...Had alot of good storm model graphics too...I need to go way back and see if it's still posted here.

Good Hunting...

 

[Hangingfor8]

The scatter patterns show a distint pattern among several of the wrecks of the 1715s

 

[stevemc]

I agree. If you look at the color charts that they made at the Fisher's museum a while back, if you are privy to that, you can see where items were found, what they were by the color, and the actual scatter pattern that run along. That pretty much shows that 1 ship made the scatter pattern. Not there isnt anything outside of each scatter pattern, of course not, there is a lot I am sure. But you can see that just 1 ship for each scatter pattern was rolling or being pushed along and spilling its guts of treasure. They werent all going in the same exact direction either.

 

[Hangingfor8]

Bill Moore explained that to me a long time ago. Talk about guys that should be writing books. Bill Moore is one of the few people in the world who can say he found his weight in gold in one day. I love going to museum and just listening to him talk and tell stories. After the losses off Mel, Bob Weller, and Mo there aren't many of the great ones left.

 

[ou8acracker2]

Well this is what my train of thought goes as...

The capitana was a british made ship, those were typically made up of european oak. Spanish ships were made from spanish mahogany..Oak is heavier than mahogany..if the british ship were the heaviest and it seemed to be quite the largest and most weighed down..if a storm hit, the lighter ships would have gone further ahead, and the british ship slagged behind and probably wrecked first. It had way more displacement then the rest of the ships so it seemed. If those survivors that were found at cape canaveral were floating for 2 or 3 days, right after a storm, they can cover some ground right quick. They could have been from any ship down south but I dont think a ship would have gone WITH the storm to the cape while all the others crashed behind. After everything I have read and researched, Im figuring that the capitana is further SOUTH than the rest of the 1715 fleet. Where, who knows..but Im figuring its further south given the weight dymnamics.
Just a theory and a thought though

 

[ivan salis]

Ubilla being in command and accountible made Echeverz 2 royal treasure vessels "stay' with his 5 vessel fleet * Echeverz also kept with the two treasure vessels the dutch prize vessel " known as" Olandesa' ( spanish fot holland / dutch)-- the other 3 vessels that were in Echeverz fleet not carrying royal treasure were Echeverz's to command where to go & what to do --Echeverz did not like the way Ubilla was sailing but being he was junior to him was forced to obey with the 2 treasure vessels in his fleet --(he also kept a small vessel the Olandesa with him to use as a messenger vessel or for whatever esle he might need it for --we know that it was with him as he wrote a letter fROM the "real" (/" shelter" of the Olandesa during the salvage operations --the upper deck works and cabins had sheered off the hull when it hit bottom in the shallows near shore and surfed ashore like a gaint surf board * and were later on used as shelter during the original 1715 shipwreck recovery time frame) -- the other 3 vessels ( the Conception , the San Miguel and the El Ciervo ) of Echeverz's fleet broke away form the 8 vessel main fleet and set a more northly course as they were told to by Echeverz ( this is according to accounting of the fleets pilot major later on in havana when he was asked by spanish govt officals there to account for the where abouts of the various vessels )--we also know from records that the Conception wrecked somewhere more northly of the 8 vessel main fleet wrecksites and somewhat close to the cape canveral area as the 4 sailors from her were found on the beach at the cape after floating on a hatchcover from the vessel for a couple days --the other 2 missing vessels of Echeverz's fleet --the tabacco hauling NAO vessel SAN MIGUEL and FRENCH PRIZE VESSEL (AKA) EL CIEVRO (the stag) reportly carrying dyewood - possible locations are open to debate. --although there are reports of the wreckage of a large vessel or vessels on the NORTH COAST OF ST AUGUSTINE * (THUS ON THE BEACH CLOSE TO ST AUGUSTINE SLIGHTLY NORTH OF THE CITY) ACCORDING TO THE SEPT 20TH, 1715 LETTER SENT FROM SALMON TOTHE KING OF SPAIN)

 

[ou8acracker2]

If the survivors were at sea floating for 2 or 3 days..they wouldnt have come aground anywhere even remotely near where the ship went down..they would have gone north or south, depending on how the storm behaved..most likely would have gone north toward the outerbanks following the path of the storm. 2 or 3 days they would have been somewhere near the st. augustine.

 

[ivan salis]

its believed by many folks --that they floated northward (due to the storms effects taking them northerly) and that the vessel ( Conception) hit a reef and sank a bit south of the cape

the wreckage reportly found on the beaches just north of st augustine are believed to be one or both of the 2 missing totally "unaccounted" for 1715 fleet vessels -- the San Miguel / El Ciervo --according to the letter from salmon to the king of spain dated sept 20th , 1715