Metal detectorist finds rare treasures under sands

OP
OP
Alexandre

Alexandre

Bronze Member
Oct 21, 2009
1,047
432
Lisbon
City: Protect historical artifacts
Outrage over TV reality show sparked commission action Posted: January 24, 2012 - 9:55pm, St. Augustine Record.

Desiring to protect the city’s historic resources, St. Augustine City Commission this week passed a resolution reminding its residents that local archeological artifacts require protection from exploitation.

Commissioner Nancy Sikes-Kline became alarmed after a Los Angeles film company recently requested to film a reality show of city residents digging artifacts from their yards and talking about them on camera.

That project was never developed, though just weeks before, a local resident armed with an expensive metal detector boasted about finding “secret” sites and shipwrecks where he locates and removes thousands of artifacts, including gold and silver from the 16th century.

“It was a double-whammy,” Sikes-Kline said Tuesday. “So it was important to get our message out.”

She also heard that the film company planned digging on the site where Seminole Chief Osceola was captured.

In a prepared statement released Tuesday morning by the city, Sikes-Kline said, “We can all be the best stewards of our property and be sure that when it’s excavated it is not done wilfully but with professional oversight.”

Both those cases sparked an angry outcry from residents and protests from archeologists who said removal of historical artifacts from their locations removes any chance of determining their age and much of the historic value they may hold.

Artifact restoration expert John Powell of St. Augustine said Tuesday that the city’s “archeological integrity” must be maintained.

“St. Augustine has already lost innumerable archeological resources to construction and development,” he said. “Any information we can save about the city’s past we should save. (The city’s) archeological ordinance mandates that any major disruption of soil must be excavated by the city. It’s the only thing that stands between archeological information and the total destruction of those resources.”

Powell praised City Archeologist Carl Halbirt and renowned University of Florida archeologist Kathleen Deagan as world-class “treasures” who have influenced and educated thousands of local residents with their work.

Halbirt said that, by having the archeological ordinance, 600 city properties have been excavated.

“Without the ordinance and investigation, this information would have been permanently lost,” he said. “We’re helping to preserve St. Augustine’s heritage through documentation.”

Sikes-Kline admitted that the new resolution has no enforcement teeth but said it serves to remind residents they should recognize the importance of preserving the archeological significance of what they find on their land.

This can be done by contacting the city prior to any excavation, she said.

There is no telling what Halbirt will find.

For example, while excavating a wooded lot off Magnolia Street for a proposed house construction, he found post holes that led to the conclusion that this site once held a prehistoric Native American occupation that dates prior to Don Pedro Menendez.

Also on that site he found more post holes and archeological items that post-date the 1565 Menendez encampment.

Sikes-Kline said that public property in the county and city is already protected.

“But private property is private property. We can’t tell people what they can or cannot do on their property,” she said. “We just want them to call before digging. This (resolution) is an opportunity to educate people.”
 

ivan salis

Gold Member
Feb 5, 2007
16,794
3,809
callahan,fl
🏆 Honorable Mentions:
1
Detector(s) used
delta 4000 / ace 250 - used BH and many others too
ie * by law on private land, we archies can not legally make you , do it "our way" -- ( but we sure wish we could )-- so until we can , we going to try and "brain wash" you and politically and publicly brow beat you into doing it "our way" . -- now submit your private property rights to us , because after all , its for yur own good you know, trust us , because we know whats best for you. . :angry5: :whip2:
 

VOC

Sr. Member
Apr 11, 2006
484
188
Atlantic Ocean
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
The USA should do what the UK has done and set up a system like this.

Works well, and most of the heritage organisations support it

http://finds.org.uk/
 

vulcan007

Full Member
Dec 4, 2007
103
0
This is exactly what I meant. Now we have the city of St.
Augustine officials looking for ordinances to ban metal
detecting because of the opportunist ambition of one person.

We all see that no treasures have been found on the beach but
the beach will take the hit when the authorities ban mding
here.

I mean if Sprataly claims to have found some historical site (doubtful)
he should tell the world to get his name for posterity instead of
speculating and ruining this hobby for everyone else.

Now everytime you go mding on the beach locals look at you
like you are doing somethin illegal.
 

tarpon192

Sr. Member
Mar 18, 2009
366
62
Detector(s) used
Minelab
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
ivan salis said:
ie * by law on private land, we archies can not legally make you , do it "our way" -- ( but we sure wish we could )-- so until we can , we going to try and "brain wash" you and politically and publicly brow beat you into doing it "our way" . -- now submit your private property rights to us , because after all , its for yur own good you know, trust us , because we know whats best for you. . :angry5: :whip2:
What is underground on my property is mine. I don't care what the cronies say, and the city idiots say. They all think people are stupid. "Call us before you dig". I'll call and tell them to go to hell. It's my property, I paid for it with my own hard earned money, and on top of that I pay property taxes every year. They want to display it for the American people - WELL I AM AN AMERICAN, BORN AND RAISED ON THIS SOIL AND I SPEAK ONLY ENGLISH. My kids get all the "stuff" I have found over the last 70 years. Keep your mouth shout about what you find.
Ask some of the guys on here who work shipwrecks off the florida coast, and they will tell how the cronies (archies), and the government get first pick on what they find. Cronies are working on salvage boats out of jupiter, and make it a nightmare for the crews. Funded by the government with taxpayer dollars they get to choose what they keep. Where can one go and view all the items the state took from working crews? NOT ANYWHERE BECAUSE THE BEST OF THE BEST IS IN SOME POLITICIANS HOUSE, AND THEY SURE AS HELL WILL NOT LET ANYONE TAKE A LOOK.
I really hope this guy never has any problems with any branch of government. What he finds is his. If city officials are getting involved they need to buy a detector and look for the "stuff" themselves on their days off, and then turn it over to the state so it can be put on display.
Think twice about posting and up loading pictures on any webpage - one day they may knock on your door.
MORE LAWS - JUST WHAT THIS GREAT COUNTRY NEEDS.
 

LM

Hero Member
Dec 11, 2007
665
181
South
Detector(s) used
Charts and Maps.
Primary Interest:
Shipwrecks
vulcan007 said:
Now everytime you go mding on the beach locals look at you
like you are doing somethin illegal.

I'm a St. Aug native and have been MD'ing town for going on 20 years now...

I hit places in the early 90's that if someone were seen out there now with a MD, it would probably get the SWAT team called out. Lighthouse grounds (with permission), Oglethorpe Park, the plaza downtown (I'm not kidding ;D ), the State Park, etc, etc, etc... I was young and didn't know better but more importantly, nobody cared back then. For some reason, I always seemed to know better than to try it on the Fort grounds, but at one point, I did have a midnight caper all planned out (I was like 15 at the time... mea culpa :wink: )

Yes, things are different today. Scarier yet, things might drastically change if the MD community in St. Aug doesn't step up and propose a solution that is palatable but still, I haven't gotten any 'weird looks' that were outside of what a detector usually gets.

I've detected both inlets (north and south, where the massacre was supposed to have taken place) more times than I can count. Found more old shipwreck stuff on St. Aug beach after a big storm than I ever have at either of those places. Have found some 'interesting' stuff on the beaches between Vilano and Ponte Vedra, though.
 

LM

Hero Member
Dec 11, 2007
665
181
South
Detector(s) used
Charts and Maps.
Primary Interest:
Shipwrecks
ivan salis said:
bob was smart enough to make the reporters sign a "non discloser" saying they could tell no one of the locations he took them to to prevent his locations from being leaked out. -- if they tell a soul ,he can sue em.

I hope he gains traction with whatever he's doing. Still, when Mr. Jack Williams passed away recently, the sentiments expressed about the work he did at the (HIS!) Ft Mose property were outright hostile towards anyone who isn't affiliated with a college of some kind.

The most profound thing soft-science academia has contributed to the world over the past 50 years is tricking everyone into believing in their own preeminence.

There is a middle ground here, but it's not to be found amongst people who believe locating/recovering artifacts and documenting relevant context requires 6 to 8 years of college.
 

Sapper23

Full Member
Aug 22, 2007
164
3
FL
Detector(s) used
Explor II, seamk
I wish Jack was still here...!!! He can tell everyone' How the city of Saint Augustine, and the State,
AND!!! a certain person, after his land was taken..by " EMINENT DOMAIN " Her career went on a very fast track
with the state of FL. Jack was a great person!,, LOTS of History!!! it's very sad how groups, like
LAMP, SAAA.. wants laws, to stop detecting on are local beach's... The other sad part was...
within 24hrs, before WW2 Vet was at rest!! SAAA, FPAN, was knocking on his son door. asking for all
the relic's, and maps of St. Aug. Back!!! came off the his property' " Legally "....
 

LM

Hero Member
Dec 11, 2007
665
181
South
Detector(s) used
Charts and Maps.
Primary Interest:
Shipwrecks
Sapper23 said:
I wish Jack was still here...!!! He can tell everyone' How the city of Saint Augustine, and the State,
AND!!! a certain person, after his land was taken..by " EMINENT DOMAIN " Her career went on a very fast track
with the state of FL. Jack was a great person!,, LOTS of History!!! it's very sad how groups, like
LAMP, SAAA.. wants laws, to stop detecting on are local beach's... The other sad part was...
within 24hrs, before WW2 Vet was at rest!! SAAA, FPAN, was knocking on his son door. asking for all
the relic's, and maps of St. Aug. Back!!! came off the his property' " Legally "....

I hope he told them to piss up a rope.

Going on about 10 years ago, back when Henry L. was still running his gunsmith shop, Jack told me a few different stories about the enormous aggravation those idiots caused him. (He also related an amusing anecdote about his favorite Ithaca 37 shotgun, but I won't repeat that here :wink: )

Examine history, it's always brave men of enterprise who get stuff done. Jack was just such a man, fighting the never-ending battle against cubicle bureaucrats and their natural allies, office-academics.

People who make their living off our tax dollars always have an unspoken union with one another. What bothers me to no end is how our society now looks towards those do-nothing idiot 'theorists' for guidance, when it's really guys like Jack who know the right path and still have the dirt beneath their fingernails from getting the job done.
 

ivan salis

Gold Member
Feb 5, 2007
16,794
3,809
callahan,fl
🏆 Honorable Mentions:
1
Detector(s) used
delta 4000 / ace 250 - used BH and many others too
jacks land -- jacks research * -- jacks finds * and in the end the state hijacked jack -- they stole what he "legally" owned from jack -- by abusing the "powers' vested in them -- to rob him of what he was after as he was closing in on the treasure stash that the "free blacks" of fort moses buried when the british attacked in 1702 * -- its a crying shame what was done to him -- they hounded him for the "relics" he found on the land "before' it "offically" became state land -- he told them basically --over his dead body and for the "buncha crooks" to "piss off" -- its just another reasom I say -- them "grubbermint" folks ain't yer freinds. :wink: remember 99% of the time they only know what you tell tell em , so tell em zippo. nada . -- give em the "mushroom" treatment ----keep em in the dark and feed em BS.

and yes a certain female archie "fast tracked" and gained alot by this "judas act"--she is a very well known anti treasure hunter now --to any and all that care to check up on the facts * you now know why ( because we treasure hunters know her "dirty lil secert")-- she had to pay the price for fame & glory and now her hands are "dirty" in a way that doesn't wash off.
 

Sapper23

Full Member
Aug 22, 2007
164
3
FL
Detector(s) used
Explor II, seamk
YES!!! His family member said,, afew choice words.. and the Door was slamed!!!!
Jack W. was a great friend, outstanding Pilot.. He had some great history in his house!
 

Au_Dreamers

Hero Member
Dec 15, 2010
988
668
back on the 1715!!
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
ivan salis said:
ie * by law on private land, we archies can not legally make you , do it "our way" -- ( but we sure wish we could )-- so until we can , we going to try and "brain wash" you and politically and publicly brow beat you into doing it "our way" . -- now submit your private property rights to us , because after all , its for yur own good you know, trust us , because we know whats best for you. . :angry5: :whip2:

That's happening now in other states. There?s a post about one of the Western States that a bottle digger is in big trouble because the Historical Dept has passed laws even for private property. Their board defines what constitutes a historically important site by their determination of multiple objects of certain age like 35 years old!!
 

Au_Dreamers

Hero Member
Dec 15, 2010
988
668
back on the 1715!!
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
VOC said:
The USA should do what the UK has done and set up a system like this.

Works well, and most of the heritage organisations support it

http://finds.org.uk/

Are the lands of the UK owned by the people or the "Crown'?
 

ivan salis

Gold Member
Feb 5, 2007
16,794
3,809
callahan,fl
🏆 Honorable Mentions:
1
Detector(s) used
delta 4000 / ace 250 - used BH and many others too
subject vs "citizen" --

a subject is "subject" to anything the crown (govt) wants to do to them -- thus the govt "owns' the people

citizen --the people "own" the govt and by voting elect those who are to do the "will of the people" that elect them while in office -- ie the govt gets its "power" by the consent of the governed.
 

VOC

Sr. Member
Apr 11, 2006
484
188
Atlantic Ocean
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
"Are the lands of the UK owned by the people or the "Crown'?"

Both is the answer

All the land was once owned by the varius Monarchs.

When they were under threat they relied on families and inderviduals to support them to repel invaders or rebels.

Payment for these acts of support was often by giving them large areas of land that became theirs to own.

Over the years these lands have been sub-divided, gifted or sold into smaller plots so now vast areas of the UK are in private ownership on a freehold basis. This could range from a farm or country estate right down to the land your house is built on or just a square foot of land held as a ransom strip.

Large public areas such a national parks and moorland are often owned either by the government, local councils or by a large landowners such as the Duke of Cornwall ( Prince Charles - www.duchyofcornwall.org ) or the Duke of Westminster ( www.grosvenorestate.com ) etc.

The Crown (owned by the current Monarch) is diferent from the Government (owned by the people), so you will see things like the government leasing land off of the crown for military training etc.

Land owned by the Crown is managed by Crown Estates ( www.thecrownestate.co.uk )

The Crown also own most of the seabed out to the 3 mile limits, but local land owners may own the foreshore or out to some arbitory limit such as how far a man can walk out on horse back, fire a arrow from their land or see a burning barrel of tar etc.
 

vulcan007

Full Member
Dec 4, 2007
103
0
While I am all for private property rights and believe that the
beaches belong to all of us, I am puzzled by some responses
here. Some of you attack archeologists and historians for
no reason other than envy. I respect these professionals and
believe that they do a valuable job for preserving some of
our history. Otherwise if all sites were pillaged indiscriminally
there would not be any record of our past.

As far some posting that they do not want to have any archies
checking what they find in their private properties, my thought
is if you find a bunch of relics and tell no one you are just
hurting yourself because if you report these finds (which you can
keep anyway) you would place your property in the historical map.
By doing this the value of your property may go up because
there will be a record of the finds. It seems the better thing to do
both ethically, historically, and practically. After all this is what Spratale
is doing by trying to gain some credibility and recognition for his finds.
I think he is just doing it backwards because he needs the archies
to validate his assertions. Without the archies he will never get the
proper credit he seeks.

Ahoy mateys!
 

VOC

Sr. Member
Apr 11, 2006
484
188
Atlantic Ocean
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting

ivan salis

Gold Member
Feb 5, 2007
16,794
3,809
callahan,fl
🏆 Honorable Mentions:
1
Detector(s) used
delta 4000 / ace 250 - used BH and many others too
bob wants the "public" to know of his finds -- he likes to show his finds off to school kids and for them to see history "first hand" & up close / hands on . -- bob has documented his finds much the same way an "offical" archie would and if he wanted to can tell you exactly gps wize -- where ,when , how deep a item was found --so its all important historical "context" is historically speaking still "intact" , as the archies would say.

bob has little interest in dealing with some archies , since many only want to know his sites locations to be able to "shut them off from public access" , so only they can visit the sites.

I know bob -- hes a class act , and a great treasure hunter as well as a member of the metal detecting club that I am the currently president of.-- P.S. our club has rules that the members must abide by. ie --no "illegal hunting" --so if your wondering - bob does it legal. folks.
 

Au_Dreamers

Hero Member
Dec 15, 2010
988
668
back on the 1715!!
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
vulcan007 said:
While I am all for private property rights and believe that the
beaches belong to all of us, I am puzzled by some responses
here. Some of you attack archeologists and historians for
no reason other than envy. I respect these professionals and
believe that they do a valuable job for preserving some of
our history. Otherwise if all sites were pillaged indiscriminally
there would not be any record of our past.

Sure if ALL sites WERE "pillaged indiscriminately”.

But that is not the case and as much as history shows that some site do get pillage history also shows that many “treasure hunters” do it for their love of history and then open museums to share with “the rest of the world.”

It also doesn’t take an Archeologist to obtain a record of the past. These types of straw man arguments are what some Archie’s put out in the press and indoctrinate the public with.


As far some posting that they do not want to have any archies
checking what they find in their private properties, my thought
is if you find a bunch of relics and tell no one you are just
hurting yourself because if you report these finds (which you can
keep anyway) This is the slippery slope that we are going down in America right now. While the “other side” slips in these laws to take private property and private collections most Americans believe we are all just fine and our rights are being protected. That is unless you look below the surface of what is happening in the Good Ol USA.you would place your property in the historical map.
By doing this the value of your property may go up because
there will be a record of the finds. It seems the better thing to do
both ethically, historically, and practically. After all this is what Spratale
is doing by trying to gain some credibility and recognition for his finds.
I think he is just doing it backwards because he needs the archies
to validate his assertions. Without the archies he will never get the
proper credit he seeks.

Ahoy mateys!

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?aid=/20071118/news/711180323

"Backyard treasure hunters beware. A little-known Oregon statute makes it illegal for anyone to intentionally unearth artifacts more than 75 years old without a permit from the state — even on private property.

After local bottle hunter Dale Mlasko was featured in the Mail Tribune and on the Travel Channel show "Cash and Treasures," he received a letter from the state saying he may have run afoul of the law."

I can't find the article that talks about how the state can declare any area "archeologically sensitive" if there is a (non predefined- determined by their board) amount of artifacts within an area and then declare it off limits.

and to quote "more bottle hunters have gone underground."

With FL's history and some treasure hunters being more known than obscure individual bottle hunters across America laws like the one in Oregon get put in place without public knowledge or public concerns.

So this is why such recent laws in FL have been fought so hard because we know if the Govt is given an inch they'll take 7 miles...

Again "some" not all ...
 

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Discussions

Top