Odyssey treasure will go to Spain!

[old man]

Kudos to Spain and its relentless pursuit of justice and underwater cultural heritage protection.

Remember, this was never about the gold and silver. Maybe next time there is some people that thinks that they can make a fast buck on our ships and cargo, maybe they will have Odyssey's example of such a Big Fail will work as a sobbering thought.

Alexandre, Looks to me like Odyssey filed papers with the U.S. Supreme Court today to Not send the treasure back to Spain.
I guess we'll have to wait a while longer to see whether or not Odyssey has to give anything back.

 

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[Alexandre]

Alexandre, Looks to me like Odyssey filed papers with the U.S. Supreme Court today to Not send the treasure back to Spain.
I guess we'll have to wait a while longer to see whether or not Odyssey has to give anything back.

In the end, it's the lawyers that win...

 

[old man]

Alexandre, Looks to me like Odyssey filed papers with the U.S. Supreme Court today to Not send the treasure back to Spain.
I guess we'll have to wait a while longer to see whether or not Odyssey has to give anything back.

In the end, it's the lawyers that win...

Alexandre, we may not see eye to eye on the way things are run in the salvage business. That doesn't mean that I don't respect you, I do.
I also agree with you 100%, the attorney's are the only ones that are going to win in the end. No matter how this is settled.

 

[VOC]

In the end, it's the lawyers that win...

And the fight has yet to begin in the Spanish and European courts if the American Supreme Court say's that the coins are to go to Spain

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

In the end, it's the lawyers that win...

And the fight has yet to begin in the Spanish and European courts if the American Supreme Court say's that the coins are to go to Spain

Two Spanish Military Hercules aircraft will be in Florida next week.
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_33636.shtml
The real gold coins and gold box from the Mercedes.
Ossy

 

[VOC]

"Two Spanish Military Hercules aircraft will be in Florida next week"

Hope they carry enough fuel to get home again, as I cant belive any airport fueling company would accept a Spanish Goverment cheque at the moment, not with their economy as it is !

They could always pay in Silver !

And Hyperthetically if the plane dropes out of the Sky in US waters who then gets the right of salvage ?

 

[Denniss]

"Two Spanish Military Hercules aircraft will be in Florida next week"

Hope they carry enough fuel to get home again, as I cant belive any airport fueling company would accept a Spanish Goverment cheque at the moment with their economy as it is !

They could always pay in Silver !

And Hyperthetically if the plane dropes out of the Sky in US waters who then gets the right of salvage ?

Time for Odyssey to put it back where they got it.

 

[jeff of pa]

Odyssey's first mistake was bringing it here to the U.S.

I Hope they learned, Next time
take it somewhere Safe.

If there isn't a country they can trust,
there has to be an Island out there somewhere
that is empty

When dealing with Pirates, one must become a Pirate
AaaaR !

 

[piratediver]

On Sub-Arch today:

Since there has been so much incorrect information in the press (especially Spanish press) about the Black Swan case and since Peter Hess is not here to eloquently explain what this case is about, let me try to outline some of the facts:

Odyssey discovered the Black Swan “treasure” outside the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any country.

Odyssey VOLUNTARIALLY brought the recovered coins into the jurisdiction of the US Federal Admiralty Court so that anyone with a valid claim to the property could make that claim and the court could decide ownership. In addition to the claim filed by Spain, claims have been filed by descendants of some of the merchants who owned coins transported aboard the Mercedes, and the government of Peru.

There has been NO trial. The merits of the case have not been heard and there has been no cross examination of witnesses or expert testimony. The case at this point is ONLY about whether the US Court has jurisdiction to hear the case. Spain says no and they are claiming sovereign immunity because Spain is certain the Black Swan coins came from the Mercedes and the Mercedes was a naval vessel. Odyssey believes the US Courts DO have jurisdiction to hear the case because 1) the Mercedes was on a commercial mission at the time of her sinking – her gun decks had even been reconfigured to carry additional paying passengers and paid cargo 2) approximately 72% of the coin cargo aboard the Mercedes was NEVER owned by Spain but was owned by private merchants. This has not been disputed by Spain, but Spain has made no statements about giving this private property back to the rightful owners (descendants of the merchants who paid to have their cargo shipped) if they get the coins.

All Odyssey is currently fighting for is an actual trial to determine ownership, and salvage award, if any.

The site is approximately the size of 6 football fields and was covered with “clumps” of silver coins. Odyssey did not have to excavate or disturb a shipwreck to recover the coins (a pre-disturbance photomosaic is available here: http://www.shipwreck.net/g2/gallery2/v/ShipwreckProjects/black_swan/blackswanpm.jpg.html - all of those spots are clumps of coins. If you are interested in a higher resolution version, please e-mail me off list)

There is no visible sign of any human remains at the site. What is visible on the seabed is what exists archaeologically on the site (the topography and environment of the seabed make it physically impossible for wooden hull sections to be buried beneath sand blankets.) You can access a report about the site – as well as Odyssey’s major legal filings at http://www.shipwreck.net/blackswanlegal.php The download that has the site report is in Odyssey’s Response to Spain’s motion to Dismiss dated November 17, 2008. Read the Kingsley Affidavit and Report.

It is interesting to note the US State Department’s insertion into this legal case and to wonder about the motivation. Revelations from “Wikileaks” cables prove that a trade in the case was discussed – and although that trade did not happen, others may have been proposed or consummated.

What will happen to the coins if they are sent to Spain? Will there be fighting? Spanish press reports that this has begun. Will they be sold? There were press reports in 2009 that “cash-strapped Spain has ordered its navy to look for huge gold reserves that were lost at sea in the 18th century” because there was enough value there to match the current Spanish budget shortfall.

There is quite a bit of attention from Spain because of the value of this shipwreck, but where was Spain’s desire to focus on underwater cultural heritage when Odyssey (in 2005) offered to conduct archaeological work for free? We offered to conduct work on one or more ancient shipwreck sites (Punic and Roman sites discovered by Odyssey) in the Alboran Sea in conjunction with a Spanish archaeological institution with Odyssey providing $500,000 worth of ship/ROV and technician time and $50,000 in conservation services. ALL artifacts were to remain with the Spanish archaeological institution and the Spanish archaeologist would direct activities on site. If there are no coins involved is Spain not interested?

As to the question: Could this affect “treasure hunting”? I believe the answer is a resounding yes, but in ways you may not have considered. If this case goes against Odyssey, who did thorough documentation of the work on the site and who brought the case to the court in an attempt to have ownership fairly determined, what do you think “treasure hunters” will do in the future when they find a Spanish coin or artifact underwater? Do you think they will report the find or the location? Do you think they will attempt to record any information about the site? Or do you think they will quietly try to sell the coin with no provenance or worse yet, melt it down and take quick cash?

Best regards,
Laura Barton
[email protected]

 

[jeff k]

Supreme Court to review case of treasure claimed by Spain

Released : Wednesday, February 08, 2012 12:39 PM

Washington, Feb 8 (EFE).- The U.S. Supreme Court has agreed to consider a motion from a Florida firm seeking an emergency injunction against a judicial order compelling the company to hand over to Spain $500 million in gold and silver coins salvaged from the bottom of the Atlantic in May 2007.

The brief submitted by Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. will be reviewed "in the coming days" by Justice Clarence Thomas, high court sources told Efe Wednesday.

Supreme Court intervention is Odyssey's only hope of avoiding the handover of the hoard to Spain.

Odyssey filed the brief days after the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta rejected the Tampa-based company's motion to stay the same court's November decision ordering the firm to turn over the coins.

The 11th Circuit is expected this week to formally convey its decision to the District Court in Tampa that originally heard the case, which will then establish a timetable for the handover of the coins.

U.S. District Judge Steven D. Merryday ruled in December 2009 that Spain was the rightful owner of the treasure Odyssey salvaged in the same area off Portugal where the Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes, a Spanish navy frigate, was destroyed in battle in 1804.

Within days of recovering the $500 million in coins, Odyssey took the loot to Gibraltar and loaded it onto a chartered Boeing-757 for transport back to Florida.

The treasure remains at a secret location in Florida, but Spanish officials have been allowed to conduct periodic inspections to verify that the cargo is intact.

Madrid says the treasure came from the Mercedes and that the vessel and its contents rightfully belong to Spain under the principle of sovereign immunity.

Odyssey, however, contends that contemporaneous Spanish diplomatic communications show the Mercedes was on a commercial mission at the time of her sinking, invalidating Madrid's sovereign immunity claim.

The attorney representing the Spanish government, James Goold, told Efe earlier this week that Odyssey's Supreme Court brief relies on arguments "that have been rejected at every stage of the case."

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Piratediver: " Odyssey discovered ( Hunted down ) the Black Swan ( Mercedes ) treasure outside the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any country Whats Portugal a floating rock the lies keep coming out.
Ossy

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Odyssey's first mistake was bringing it here to the U.S.

I Hope they learned, Next time
take it somewhere Safe.

If there isn't a country they can trust,
there has to be an Island out there somewhere
that is empty

When dealing with Pirates, one must become a Pirate
AaaaR !

You are Pirates, it's in your DNA

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Outstanding Jeff, thanks again.

 

[jeff k]

Piratediver: " Odyssey discovered ( Hunted down ) the Black Swan ( Mercedes ) treasure outside the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any country Whats Portugal a floating rock the lies keep coming out.
Ossy

Where ignorance is bliss, 'Tis folly to be wise

I suggest you Google "contiguous zone".

 

[Alexandre]

"Law 34/2006, published in the Official Journal on July 28 2006, introduces a new statutory regime which identifies the sea areas under Portuguese jurisdiction and the state's powers in its territorial waters and on the high seas. The new regime follows the guidelines of the Montego Bay Convention 1982 and revokes the previous legal framework, which came into force in 1956. The law includes a special provision whereby all rules set out in the law must be interpreted according to the convention and other applicable international laws. Portugal has been a signatory to the convention since December 1997.



The scope of the right varies according to the sea area. It may be exercised (...) in the territorial sea on justifiable suspicion that the passage of a ship may endanger peace, good order or national security; in the contiguous zone if it is necessary to prevent or halt infringements against customs, tax, immigration or sanitation laws or regulations, or to prevent or halt damage to underwater cultural artefacts or resources".

 

[jeff k]

"Law 34/2006, published in the Official Journal on July 28 2006, introduces a new statutory regime which identifies the sea areas under Portuguese jurisdiction and the state's powers in its territorial waters and on the high seas. The new regime follows the guidelines of the Montego Bay Convention 1982 and revokes the previous legal framework, which came into force in 1956. The law includes a special provision whereby all rules set out in the law must be interpreted according to the convention and other applicable international laws. Portugal has been a signatory to the convention since December 1997.



The scope of the right varies according to the sea area. It may be exercised (...) in the territorial sea on justifiable suspicion that the passage of a ship may endanger peace, good order or national security; in the contiguous zone if it is necessary to prevent or halt infringements against customs, tax, immigration or sanitation laws or regulations, or to prevent or halt damage to underwater cultural artefacts or resources".

The Mercedes was found outside the contiguous zone, so what's your point.

 

[Alexandre]

The Mercedes was found outside the contiguous zone, so what's your point.

It was? That's not the information I have.

Where was it found, then?

 

[VOC]

"or to prevent or halt damage to underwater cultural artefacts"

Thats ok, because what Odyssey has done by recovering, conserving, and recording the coins has:

"prevent(ed) or halt(ed) damage to underwater cultural artefacts"

 

[Alexandre]

"or to prevent or halt damage to underwater cultural artefacts"

Thats ok, because what Odyssey has done by recovering, conserving, and recording the coins has:

"prevent(ed) or halt(ed) damage to underwater cultural artefacts"

Not according to Portuguese legislation.

 

[VOC]

"Not according to Portuguese legislation"

Only a court can decide that, and I think it would be easy for Odyssey to prove that the coins are better preserved on the surface than they are underwater. There is no destruction by carefully lifting them the way they did.

Portugal know's that Odyssey have not broken any Portuguese laws as does Spain !