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  1. #1
    Charter Member
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    Apr 2004
    Tesoro Sand Shark, Homebuilt pulse loop
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    permit for beyond 3 miles out?

    Does anyone know if federal jurisdiction is 12 or 24 miles out now? I've heard about Clinton signing the 24 mile boundary, but does anyone know whether there are court rulings involving such? Seems I should know this by now, but I don't. I don't think there is a permitting process for federal waters, so how is it handled? Do they typically allow the state to handle it even if the wreck is located beyond the state's three mile mark?

    Has anyone found and worked a wreck beyond three miles? What was your experience?

    Best to all,
    Darren

  2. #2
    J@J salvors

    Re: permit for beyond 3 miles out?

    Territorial rights extend in most countries to three miles, a distance left over from a time when defensive shore batteries had limited effective range. Thus, a foreign vessel could approach enemy shores no closer without fear of being fired upon. In the U.S., the states are granted dominion over this area, while up to 12 miles is the contiguous zone under Federal control. The 200-mile economic zone is designated to keep foreign nations from fishing off American reserves. All inland lakes and waterways are state controlled.

    This came from
    http://www.e-monsite.fr/treasures/rubrique-1067155.html
    Hope It Helps
    Joe

  3. #3

    Apr 2006
    south texas to the east coast
    250

    Re: permit for beyond 3 miles out?

    hi Darren,
    to be honest things may change before i finish this reply,but, i have personally worked several sites out of the state jurisdiction, which is three miles, but there are a set of variables that can effect permitting, one instance we were required to obtain a benthic survey to ascertain any possible damage from turbidity that could effect state waters although our project was outside the state limits.
    you are required to have a corp permit ( a federal faction of the gov.) for any type of overburden removal, dredging, blowing, etc. within u.s. waters.
    these statements are my understanding and should not be construed as law.
    i also would be interested in comments on this subject........
    JAS

  4. #4
    Charter Member
    us
    Apr 2004
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    Re: permit for beyond 3 miles out?

    Seems like there's a difference between territorial waters and a contiguous zone. On top of that, I couldn't find anywhere that stated that Clinton's proclamation was approved by the U.S. Senate. Did a little research and came across the following info...


    On September 2, President Clinton signed a Presidential Proclamation formally extending the United States' contiguous zone from 12 nautical miles to 24, claiming jurisdiction of these near shore waters and doubling the area within which the Coast Guard and other federal authorities can enforce U.S. environmental, customs and immigrations laws at sea.

    The U.S. claims a 12-mile territorial sea and now claims a 24-mile contiguous zone. A nation's territorial sea is that area claimed as an extension of the mainland, with the coastal nation claiming jurisdiction over the resources and submerged lands and the right to enforcement in the area. The contiguous zone is an area beyond the territorial sea in which a nation may exercise more limited control such as that necessary to prevent infringement of its customs, fiscal, immigration, or sanitary laws and regulations within its territory or territorial sea.

    The Convention of the Law of the Sea, ratified in 1994, allows a nation to create this contiguous zone. More than 130 nations have now signed onto the treaty. The United States has not. The matter awaits ratification from the U.S. Senate, but since the 1980s the United States has pledged to abide by the provisions of the treaty even though not an actual party to it.


    I'm still not sure what all this means. I'd like to check out a potential wreck 18-22 miles out, but I have no idea where to begin a permitting process. JAS, where did you begin with your wreck?

  5. #5

    Apr 2006
    south texas to the east coast
    250

    Re: permit for beyond 3 miles out?

    hi Darren,
    please be advised that i am employed by a man of knowledge untold, and my experiences barely encompass a decade i can professionally give testimony too.
    but to answer your question, my first response is federal admiralty court, we have multiple attorneys, and i can recomend some depending on your jurisdiction.
    dosent sound like much help,are you in u.s. waters.............

  6. #6
    us
    ARRG

    Dec 2005
    Florida
    JW Fishers Pulse 8X
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    Shipwrecks

    Re: permit for beyond 3 miles out?

    Quote Originally Posted by riobravo
    hi Darren,
    please be advised that i am employed by a man of knowledge untold, and my experiences barely encompass a decade i can professionally give testimony too.
    but to answer your question, my first response is federal admiralty court, we have multiple attorneys, and i can recomend some depending on your jurisdiction.
    dosent sound like much help,are you in u.s. waters.............
    Yes he is in U.S. waters

    Chagy....
    Researcher, Scuba diver and adventurer , always on the quest of discovering, recovering, conserving and exhibiting colonial-era artifacts and treasure.
    Each excavation site is always treated as an archaeological project.
    "Preserving Maritime History For Future Generations"


  7. #7
    Charter Member
    us
    Apr 2004
    Tesoro Sand Shark, Homebuilt pulse loop
    2,212
    68 times
    Shipwrecks

    Re: permit for beyond 3 miles out?

    Chagy is right. It's in US waters.

    Quote Originally Posted by riobravo
    ...dosent sound like much help...
    Actually it's been the most help so far Federal Admiralty Court, eh? Sounds like a good start. I'll look forward to talking to you more in a few weeks. Thanks for the tips so far. After we do a few initial dives, I may want to secure the services of one of the attorneys you know.

    All the best,
    Darren

  8. #8

    Sep 2006
    38

    Re: permit for beyond 3 miles out?

    Darren,

    I think as posted fed is the way to begin (with a lawyer in hand). If you are near NC state waters there will be a few more hoops to navigate. We have worked for Dept. of interior MMS in and around NC state waters as well as US and there are some loop holes. One is claim site is physical oceanography study site. ie put a current meter and let it record. If your site really pans out I can lease you one for say $10.00 us dollars and you pay shipping. You then retrieve data and can post a brief report 1 paragraph + send data to nc state, mms etc. I can help you with contacts. I dont know what you have to do blow holes ( removal of over burden) . AS I am sure you know NC state can be vary protective and seem to have arms longer than the reported 3 miles.

    Good Hunting

    Scott

  9. #9
    Charter Member
    us
    Apr 2004
    Tesoro Sand Shark, Homebuilt pulse loop
    2,212
    68 times
    Shipwrecks

    Re: permit for beyond 3 miles out?

    Thanks, Scott. I really appreciate your offer. I may take you up on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rssharpetx
    If you are near NC state waters there will be a few more hoops to navigate.
    How near? I am looking at 15-19 miles beyond the three mile mark. It's actually in SC, not NC, but I assume the process will be similar.


  10. #10
    us
    Feb 2004
    lake mary florida
    Wesmar SHD700SS Side Scan Sonar,U/W Mac 1 Turbo Aquasound by American Electronics,Fisher 1280x,Aquasound UW md,Aqua pulse AQ1B
    2,055
    54 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: permit for beyond 3 miles out?

    For florida As far as the state jurisdication goes... it extends 3 miles out on the east coast and 10 miles out on the west coast.I was told this in 2004 from the
    Division of Historical Resources
    Bureau of Archaeological Research
    500 S. Bronough St.
    Tallahassee, FL 32399-0250
    (850) 245-6335
    Millions of dollars of Spanish treasure await those who would dare brave the eye of the hurricane.

  11. #11

    May 2006
    1,520

    Re: permit for beyond 3 miles out?

    If I understand what is being said here is that if you were to work a wreck that is 35 miles out in the Gulf you do not need anyones permission. Is this correct?
    Peg Leg

  12. #12

    Apr 2005
    863
    2 times

    Re: permit for beyond 3 miles out?

    Peg Leg

    You are not correct. Take the Titanic for example. In international waters it is a matter of determining which country's court can adopt jurisdiction and interpret the appropriate rules and conventions. In the case of the Titanic, for example, it was a US court, located in Philadelphia I think.

    Mariner

  13. #13

    Dec 2004
    Jacksonville, FL
    172

    Re: permit for beyond 3 miles out?

    I know this is an old topic, but just a couple questions. 3 miles out on the fl east coast is under Fl laws, right? And is it 12 or 24 miles out for federal law? So does the St. Augustine protected area which is 10.5 miles N of St Augustine inlet to 4.5 miles S of Mantanzas inlet go out for 3 miles? Any help would be appreciated.
    Capt_t

  14. #14

    Jun 2005
    106
    3 times

    Re: permit for beyond 3 miles out?

    Darren,
    Get a nautical chart of the area you are interested in. On the chart is a line that shows exactly where state and federal waters are in that area. Sometimes the line will vary based on where it was measured from.....Like the measurements are from an offshore island or from the coastline.
    Splash,
    Donovan

  15. #15
    Charter Member
    us
    Apr 2004
    Tesoro Sand Shark, Homebuilt pulse loop
    2,212
    68 times
    Shipwrecks

    Re: permit for beyond 3 miles out?

    Thanks, Don, but I know how to find a line on a map Your reply doesn't fit with my question at the top.

    I was simply asking what jurisdiction the federal gov't has beyond the 12 mile territorial waters. If someone finds a wreck beyond twelve miles, say at 30 miles out...does the 24 mile contiguous zone apply to wrecks, or for that matter the 200 mile EEZ (exclusive economic zone)?

    As I understand it, the feds can still govern wrecks between 3-12 miles, but beyond that, int'l salvage laws apply.

 

 
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