MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
Re: This IMO is a very accurate read on the Odyssey Business model
I hear Diving Doc has moved to CanadaJeff K said:
This IMO is a very accurate read on the Odyssey Buisness model
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Vox veritas
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- Aug 2, 2008
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Re: This IMO is a very accurate read on the Odyssey Business model
No attempt at extortion? It was collaborative effort, which is very different. The messages exchanged prove it. And something more.
Jeff K said:
No attempt at extortion? It was collaborative effort, which is very different. The messages exchanged prove it. And something more.
VOC
Sr. Member
" What has OME ever done to you personally or to your people" Stealing Spanish Property my English friend, The English know how to do that very well !
Ossy
OME has not stolen anything; they recovered the coins in the full glare of a TV documentary crew with the ships position given 24/7 on AIS.
They tried to talk to the Spanish Government before they went to site who were not interested, and then they presented the coins to a court of law for the ownership to be established (still yet to be heard before a court).
How can that be classed as stealing.
Stealing is invading a country and sailing off with all its wealth.
You must still be sore about Drake, Grenville, Raleigh, Hawkins, Blake etc, etc, etc, who would not put up with any nonsense from you pesky Spaniards.
Ossy
OME has not stolen anything; they recovered the coins in the full glare of a TV documentary crew with the ships position given 24/7 on AIS.
They tried to talk to the Spanish Government before they went to site who were not interested, and then they presented the coins to a court of law for the ownership to be established (still yet to be heard before a court).
How can that be classed as stealing.
Stealing is invading a country and sailing off with all its wealth.
You must still be sore about Drake, Grenville, Raleigh, Hawkins, Blake etc, etc, etc, who would not put up with any nonsense from you pesky Spaniards.
Vox veritas
Bronze Member
- Aug 2, 2008
- 1,077
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Re: This IMO is a very accurate read on the Odyssey Business model
Oh my memory! Everything is perfectly "black on white" in the documents of the Spanish police, with signature and seal.
Vox veritas said:
Oh my memory! Everything is perfectly "black on white" in the documents of the Spanish police, with signature and seal.
Vox veritas
Bronze Member
- Aug 2, 2008
- 1,077
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- Primary Interest:
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VOC said:
VOC, thanks to the "pesky" Spanish, many American companies have recovered treasures, such as Odyssey, Mel Fisher, Bob Marx, etc.. etc. and thanks to those "pesky" many U.S. states have Spanish names. Why not discover America the English crown? And why America is named by an Italian? So, please !!!!
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
They did talk to the Spanish officials, who clearly denied OME any rights to salvage any Spanish wrecks ! THEY SAID NO !!VOC said:
You keep citing English pirates, Didn't the English hang Raleigh
Drakes father was thrown out of his town for being a thief, Like father likeson, Didn't they want to court marshal Drake at the battle of the grave lines for disobeying orders, because he wanted to raid a treasure ship.
Queen and country, Yer right !
Ossy
Vox veritas said:
Claudio, you are forgetting Sir Richard Grenville, who established a military colony on Roanoke Island, off the coast of modern North Carolina in North America.
Oh, wait... he was killed by a combined Portuguese-Spanish fleet in a naval battle off the Azores, in 1591 and his ship, the Revenge, was captured.
http://www.luminarium.org/renascence-editions/raleigh1.html
VOC
Sr. Member
Bravery and Loyalty to his men, something you Iberian's would not understand:
Revenge came to her end in a glorious but bizarre episode that has become a legend. In order to impede a Spanish naval recovery after the Armada, Sir John Hawkins proposed a blockade of the supply of treasure being acquired from the Spanish Empire in America by a constant naval patrol designed to intercept Spanish ships. Revenge, was on such a patrol in the summer of 1591 under the command of Sir Richard Grenville.
The Spanish had dispatched a fleet of some 53 ships under Alfonso de Bazán, having under his orders Generals Martín de Bertendona and Marcos de Aramburu. Intent upon the capture of the English at Flores in the northern Azores. In late August 1591 the Spanish fleet came upon the English while repairs to the ships caused the crews, many of whom were suffering an epidemic of fever, to be ashore. Most of the ships managed to slip away to sea. Grenville who had many sick men ashore decided to wait for them. When putting to sea he might have gone round the west of Corvo island, but he decided to go straight through the Spaniards, who were approaching from the eastward.
The battle began late on 31 August, when overwhelming force was immediately brought to bear upon the ship, which put up a gallant resistance. For some time he succeeded by skillful tactics in avoiding much of the enemy's fire, but they were all round him and gradually numbers began to tell. As one Spanish ship retired beaten, another took her place, and for fifteen hours the unequal contest continued. Attempts by the Spaniards to board were driven off. San Felipe, a vessel three times her size, tried to come alongside for the Spaniards to board her, along with Aramburu's San Cristóbal. After boarding Revenge, San Felipe was forced to break off. Seven men of the boarding party died, and other three where rescued by San Bernabé, which grappled her shortly after. The Spanish also lost the galleon Ascensión and a smaller vessel by accident that night, after they collided each other. Meanwhile, San Cristóbal, which had come to help San Felipe, rammed Revenge underneath her aftcastle, and some time later, Bertendona's San Bernabé battered the English warship with heavy fire, inflicting many casualties and severe damage. The English crew returned fire from the embrasures below deck. When morning broke on 1 September, Revenge lay with her masts shot away, six feet of water on the hold and only sixteen men left uninjured out of a crew of two hundred and fifty. She remained grappled by the galleons San Bernabé and San Cristóbal, the latter with her bow shattered by the ramming.[3] The grappling manoeuvre of San Bernabé, which compelled the English gun crews to abandon their posts in order to fight off boarding parties, was decisive in securing the fate of the Revenge.[4]
"Out-gunned, out-fought, and out-numbered fifty-three to one",[5] when the end looked certain Grenville ordered Revenge to be sunk: "Sink me the ship, Master Gunner—sink her, split her in twain! ... Fall into the hands of God, not into the hands of Spain! ".[5] His officers could not agree with this order and a surrender was agreed by which the lives of the officers and crew would be spared. After an assurance of proper conduct, and having held off dozens of Spanish ships, Revenge at last surrendered. The injured Grenville died of wounds two days later aboard the Spanish flagship.
The captured but heavily damaged Revenge never reached Spain, as instead she was lost with her mixed prize-crew of 70 Spaniards and English captives, along with a large number of the Spanish ships in a dreadful storm off the Azores. The battle damaged Revenge was cast upon a cliff next to the island off Terceira, where she broke up completely. Between 1592 and 1593, 14 guns of the Revenge were recovered by the Spanish from the site of the wreck. Other cannons were driven ashore years later by the tide, and the last weapons raised were salvaged as late as 1625.
Revenge came to her end in a glorious but bizarre episode that has become a legend. In order to impede a Spanish naval recovery after the Armada, Sir John Hawkins proposed a blockade of the supply of treasure being acquired from the Spanish Empire in America by a constant naval patrol designed to intercept Spanish ships. Revenge, was on such a patrol in the summer of 1591 under the command of Sir Richard Grenville.
The Spanish had dispatched a fleet of some 53 ships under Alfonso de Bazán, having under his orders Generals Martín de Bertendona and Marcos de Aramburu. Intent upon the capture of the English at Flores in the northern Azores. In late August 1591 the Spanish fleet came upon the English while repairs to the ships caused the crews, many of whom were suffering an epidemic of fever, to be ashore. Most of the ships managed to slip away to sea. Grenville who had many sick men ashore decided to wait for them. When putting to sea he might have gone round the west of Corvo island, but he decided to go straight through the Spaniards, who were approaching from the eastward.
The battle began late on 31 August, when overwhelming force was immediately brought to bear upon the ship, which put up a gallant resistance. For some time he succeeded by skillful tactics in avoiding much of the enemy's fire, but they were all round him and gradually numbers began to tell. As one Spanish ship retired beaten, another took her place, and for fifteen hours the unequal contest continued. Attempts by the Spaniards to board were driven off. San Felipe, a vessel three times her size, tried to come alongside for the Spaniards to board her, along with Aramburu's San Cristóbal. After boarding Revenge, San Felipe was forced to break off. Seven men of the boarding party died, and other three where rescued by San Bernabé, which grappled her shortly after. The Spanish also lost the galleon Ascensión and a smaller vessel by accident that night, after they collided each other. Meanwhile, San Cristóbal, which had come to help San Felipe, rammed Revenge underneath her aftcastle, and some time later, Bertendona's San Bernabé battered the English warship with heavy fire, inflicting many casualties and severe damage. The English crew returned fire from the embrasures below deck. When morning broke on 1 September, Revenge lay with her masts shot away, six feet of water on the hold and only sixteen men left uninjured out of a crew of two hundred and fifty. She remained grappled by the galleons San Bernabé and San Cristóbal, the latter with her bow shattered by the ramming.[3] The grappling manoeuvre of San Bernabé, which compelled the English gun crews to abandon their posts in order to fight off boarding parties, was decisive in securing the fate of the Revenge.[4]
"Out-gunned, out-fought, and out-numbered fifty-three to one",[5] when the end looked certain Grenville ordered Revenge to be sunk: "Sink me the ship, Master Gunner—sink her, split her in twain! ... Fall into the hands of God, not into the hands of Spain! ".[5] His officers could not agree with this order and a surrender was agreed by which the lives of the officers and crew would be spared. After an assurance of proper conduct, and having held off dozens of Spanish ships, Revenge at last surrendered. The injured Grenville died of wounds two days later aboard the Spanish flagship.
The captured but heavily damaged Revenge never reached Spain, as instead she was lost with her mixed prize-crew of 70 Spaniards and English captives, along with a large number of the Spanish ships in a dreadful storm off the Azores. The battle damaged Revenge was cast upon a cliff next to the island off Terceira, where she broke up completely. Between 1592 and 1593, 14 guns of the Revenge were recovered by the Spanish from the site of the wreck. Other cannons were driven ashore years later by the tide, and the last weapons raised were salvaged as late as 1625.
Re: This IMO is a very accurate read on the Odyssey Business model
I suppose your proud of capturing a ship that was outnumbered 53 to 1.
Alexandre said:VOC said:Bravery and Loyalty to his men, something you Liberians would not understand:
Sorry... Liberians as in Liberia?
I suppose your proud of capturing a ship that was outnumbered 53 to 1.
Re: This IMO is a very accurate read on the Odyssey Business model
Jeff, I didn't capture anything. I am alive now, not fighting in the Azores in 1591.
As for outnumbered ships, we could always speak about how, in 1593, three English man of war ships burned a single Portuguese merchant ship filled with women and kids on it's way back from India:
http://www.abc.se/~pa/publ/nau_chag.htm
or how, again off the Azores, three English pirates burned the Santa Cruz and captured the Madre de Deus at Flores in 1592:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madre_de_Deus
Jeff K said:I suppose your proud of capturing a ship that was outnumbered 53 to 1.
Jeff, I didn't capture anything. I am alive now, not fighting in the Azores in 1591.
As for outnumbered ships, we could always speak about how, in 1593, three English man of war ships burned a single Portuguese merchant ship filled with women and kids on it's way back from India:
http://www.abc.se/~pa/publ/nau_chag.htm
or how, again off the Azores, three English pirates burned the Santa Cruz and captured the Madre de Deus at Flores in 1592:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madre_de_Deus
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
Re: This IMO is a very accurate read on the Odyssey Business model
Have you started to sell your shares yet?
Jeff K said:Alexandre said:VOC said:Bravery and Loyalty to his men, something you Liberians would not understand:
Sorry... Liberians as in Liberia?
I suppose your proud of capturing a ship that was outnumbered 53 to 1.
Have you started to sell your shares yet?
VOC
Sr. Member
Sorry... Liberians as in Liberia?
No, Liberians as in Lying Iberian's
(orgional post corrected).
No, Liberians as in Lying Iberian's
(orgional post corrected).piratediver
Sr. Member
from Sub-Arch today, by Filipe Castro.
Most members of this list know how much fun I had throughout the past two decades throwing eggs and tomatoes at treasure hunters. You all know my contempt for their last frontier mentality and the letters from their lawyers and solicitors, or that death threat with misspellings in it.
Every year I give my students the “Texas Monthly” article by Robert Draper, “Indian Takers,” (March, 1993, 104-107, 121-124), and every year I suggest they read Watson and Todeschini’s “The Medici Conspiracy,” two texts that summarize how I feel about treasure hunters, Texas pot hunters, Italian tombaroli, and antiques’ dealers.
In the past 25 years I have encountered many treasure hunters and developed relations that sometimes never warmed up much (if you know what I mean), and sometimes endured and became friendships based on mutual respect. I don’t endorse what they do under water in the same way I don’t endorse many of them voting twice for that despicable halfwit George W Bush (treasure hunters have a nasty tendency to be republican, but I have many republican friends - nobody is perfect!).
But the world has changed and treasure hunters are not all the jaded, violent and ignorant thugs I have encountered in Portugal and in the Caribbean, as efficient destroying an archaeological site as oblivious about the nature and magnitude of the crimes they commit.
They are not all like that anymore, and I think that it is not smart to lump them all in the same bundle. I don’t condone what Odyssey does, I am happy that Spain won the court case, I don’t believe in their business model, I think that their shares are overpriced, I am against the sale of artifacts, and I don’t believe that it is possible to do good archaeology when “the only moral obligation of a corporation is to maximize its profits,” as that sick minded thug Milton Friedman put it so eloquently.
But Greg Stemm is not a toothless Texan with a shovel and a generator, digging arrow heads in the night along the banks of the Red River, nor is he our average swindler, telling a third world dictator that he can take 20% of the loot or face the harsh reality and realize that he is powerless to stop the looting of his country’s waters. Greg is smart and cultured, politically well-connected, eager to learn, wants to be respectable, and is changing the rules of the game very fast. He is blurring the lines between contract archaeology and treasure hunting, between selling and deassessing artifacts, between antiquarian wisdom and hard scholarship. And I am not sure that most of my colleagues are paying enough attention to this.
I am perfectly aware of the confusion and the spite and the hatred my contacts with Greg Stemm are stirring among some of my colleagues, and I am (sometimes) sorry if they cannot see shades of grey. But the world is not black and white, and our 1980’s anti-treasure hunting model (four-legs-good-two-legs-bad) is not working very well. Is it? Just look around…
Most members of this list know how much fun I had throughout the past two decades throwing eggs and tomatoes at treasure hunters. You all know my contempt for their last frontier mentality and the letters from their lawyers and solicitors, or that death threat with misspellings in it.
Every year I give my students the “Texas Monthly” article by Robert Draper, “Indian Takers,” (March, 1993, 104-107, 121-124), and every year I suggest they read Watson and Todeschini’s “The Medici Conspiracy,” two texts that summarize how I feel about treasure hunters, Texas pot hunters, Italian tombaroli, and antiques’ dealers.
In the past 25 years I have encountered many treasure hunters and developed relations that sometimes never warmed up much (if you know what I mean), and sometimes endured and became friendships based on mutual respect. I don’t endorse what they do under water in the same way I don’t endorse many of them voting twice for that despicable halfwit George W Bush (treasure hunters have a nasty tendency to be republican, but I have many republican friends - nobody is perfect!).
But the world has changed and treasure hunters are not all the jaded, violent and ignorant thugs I have encountered in Portugal and in the Caribbean, as efficient destroying an archaeological site as oblivious about the nature and magnitude of the crimes they commit.
They are not all like that anymore, and I think that it is not smart to lump them all in the same bundle. I don’t condone what Odyssey does, I am happy that Spain won the court case, I don’t believe in their business model, I think that their shares are overpriced, I am against the sale of artifacts, and I don’t believe that it is possible to do good archaeology when “the only moral obligation of a corporation is to maximize its profits,” as that sick minded thug Milton Friedman put it so eloquently.
But Greg Stemm is not a toothless Texan with a shovel and a generator, digging arrow heads in the night along the banks of the Red River, nor is he our average swindler, telling a third world dictator that he can take 20% of the loot or face the harsh reality and realize that he is powerless to stop the looting of his country’s waters. Greg is smart and cultured, politically well-connected, eager to learn, wants to be respectable, and is changing the rules of the game very fast. He is blurring the lines between contract archaeology and treasure hunting, between selling and deassessing artifacts, between antiquarian wisdom and hard scholarship. And I am not sure that most of my colleagues are paying enough attention to this.
I am perfectly aware of the confusion and the spite and the hatred my contacts with Greg Stemm are stirring among some of my colleagues, and I am (sometimes) sorry if they cannot see shades of grey. But the world is not black and white, and our 1980’s anti-treasure hunting model (four-legs-good-two-legs-bad) is not working very well. Is it? Just look around…
VOC
Sr. Member
"But the world is not black and white, and our 1980’s anti-treasure hunting model (four-legs-good-two-legs-bad) is not working very well. Is it? Just look around…" (Filipe Castro February 2012 SubArch)
There you go Alexandre, your leader has now spoken and you are now free to change your veiws !
At long last welcome to the real world.
There you go Alexandre, your leader has now spoken and you are now free to change your veiws !
At long last welcome to the real world.
Wow! Free at last! You´ve been brave Filipe. I have not your courage and I rather keep my identity safe. But it´s nice to hear a reputated archaeologist recognise the value of Greg Stemm and how he´s dealing these times of changing, with its shadows included. I´m sure that, sooner or later, OME will get some kind of agreement with Spain. Too sad they didnt in the past and all this issue about the Black Swan became a legal monster. The money is in contracts with Govs. and not is selling coins. Time will show.
Ossy, you say "They did talk to the Spanish officials, who clearly denied OME any rights to salvage any Spanish wrecks ! THEY SAID NO !!". Well, it would be clarifying to know why the same official that said no to OME were raising at that time an operation of recovery over "La Mercedes" on the portuguese shore (really close to the coast) with a spanish treasure hunter (in the worst side of the term) that not even in dreams had the team, equipment and knowledge that OME had at that time. But this spanish treasure hunter stuffed the desk of this official with gifts that couldnt go through a door (literaly). It made the difference. Disgusting. And more disgusting to hear that high official speaking about piracy and things like that when he talk about OME and hiding his close friendship with this man and the plans in Portugal.
Ossy, you say "They did talk to the Spanish officials, who clearly denied OME any rights to salvage any Spanish wrecks ! THEY SAID NO !!". Well, it would be clarifying to know why the same official that said no to OME were raising at that time an operation of recovery over "La Mercedes" on the portuguese shore (really close to the coast) with a spanish treasure hunter (in the worst side of the term) that not even in dreams had the team, equipment and knowledge that OME had at that time. But this spanish treasure hunter stuffed the desk of this official with gifts that couldnt go through a door (literaly). It made the difference. Disgusting. And more disgusting to hear that high official speaking about piracy and things like that when he talk about OME and hiding his close friendship with this man and the plans in Portugal.
ScubaFinder
Bronze Member
- Jul 11, 2006
- 2,220
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Good Points Trinidad, good to see you posting here. How is that Magnetometer working out for you? Fear not, you identity is safe with me. 
Jason
Jason
VOC said:
I am my own master and a free thinker, VOC. And you forgot to post Filipe's second email to subarch...
"Wait!! I am not endorsing Odyssey! I am not saying that I believe that Odyssey is on the right path!! Jeeeesus! Don't stretch my argument!
)What I meant was that we cannot think by slogans and must keep an open mind and think things through. Let me just make two points for our discussion:
1) Even if Odyssey solves the problem of recording and publishing (and I am emphasizing "if") we are still left with the ethical problem related to the sale of artifacts, which artifacts, when, etc., and the practical problem related to the market forces, pushing down in the name of the two gods of the market: Greed and Mediocrity.
2) If we lump Odyssey with all the other treasure hunters, when they will start pumping out a stream of good publications we will be out of a number of good arguments to fight those that don't publish.
All I am saying is that things are changing, and that I see opportunities and threats. I can be wrong, but I believe that at least now we have grounds to start an adult conversation. Odyssey is opening part of its game and to shut the door on their faces sounds wrong to me. And not very smart.
Does this make sense? I don't see the world in black and white, and when I say that I am interested in Odyssey's trajectory I don't mean that they now are the good guys...
)This feels like living in Texas: "who are the good guys? and the bad guys? what?! they are not bad guys? then they are good guys?!" That's pretty much how they discuss politics around here... with the results we see."
VOC
Sr. Member
"I am my own master and a free thinker " 
Funny that you got the identical view of 99% of current academic archaeologist !
What you think is what you have been taught !
It is good to see Filipe has got the brains to see that things are changing and is now starting the conversation, this should been have started 25 years ago, and if the archaeologist had worked alongside the salvor the whole world would have benefited.
All future archaeologist will achieve much more by working with organisations that will have the funding and this except for a very few exceptions will be the private sector salvage companies.
Funny that you got the identical view of 99% of current academic archaeologist !
What you think is what you have been taught !
It is good to see Filipe has got the brains to see that things are changing and is now starting the conversation, this should been have started 25 years ago, and if the archaeologist had worked alongside the salvor the whole world would have benefited.
All future archaeologist will achieve much more by working with organisations that will have the funding and this except for a very few exceptions will be the private sector salvage companies.
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