Iberian olive jars, help wanted

[ivan salis]

loin fish / stonefish have very sharp "hollow type" spines and their venom is quite toxic * so if your wise , their not to be messed with * -- many people often feel that ghost use animals to guard there "treasure spots" ---- one of the best spots i know of to metal detect on land , always seems to have 2 to 3 old cur type stray dogs that hang around and like to "sleep" right on the sweet spot to detect oddly enough.-- amazing what a couple of dog biscuits will do .....

 

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[ivan salis]

yes, date ( at least the year) of loss and general area of loss --besides the ships "name" will greatly help --since the spanish had a madding habit of naming a vessel by "religious names" to try and have "religious protection"during their voyages - often a totally differant vessels by the same general religious "name" would be sink a 100 or more years apart and half way around the world from one another. (anyone who has seriously studied any wreck records for any amount of time knows of this lil fact)

-- plus the fact that the spanish often "multi named" their vessels like the following 1715 fleet exsample -- the smallish dutch prize vessel of Echeverz 's fleet * depending upon which document you are looking at it can be listed by 4 differant names that I know of.

#1 its "offical" or "religious name"- "San Migual (saint micheal)"

#2 --it could have its "common name "senor de la popa"

#3 the name of what is was " the dutch" -prize " ( La Olandesa)

#4 its country of origin name "Olandesa" (dutch)

yep , by mixing up one " our lady of sorrows" with another one --it could lead you to the totally wrong spot , and be a hundreds of year or more off course from what your looking for . --madding isn't it?

 

[Alexandre]

Wonderful pics, Oceanscience. Keep them coming.

You see, quite unlike the Bahamas, Brazil would be the right place to have a underwater archaeological museum - they have the shipwrecks, there are millions of Brazilians (São Paulo is the seventh largest city in the world, and number one of the southern hemisphere), and a great majority of them are educated and jut love to have knowledge of their past; the biggest inflow of Brazilian tourists in Portugal is composed of people wanting to know from where were their ancestors). Not only that, but the economy is soaring (it even surpassed Uk's economy last years).

 

[ScubaFinder]

a great majority of them are educated and jut love to have knowledge of their past

Think how much they would love to OWN a piece of their heritage....like a coin! ;-) Sorry, but it is indeed, undeniably true.

Jason

 

[Alexandre]

a great majority of them are educated and jut love to have knowledge of their past

Think how much they would love to OWN a piece of their heritage....like a coin! ;-) Sorry, but it is indeed, undeniably true.

Jason

If you have 10.000 coins from a wreck and you sell each one to a single citizen that can afford it, you will end up with 10.000 citizens with a piece of our common heritage.

Then you spend the earnings you have made and that's it - no more money for you and no common heritage for the other millions out there that did not or could not buy.

But, if INSTEAD of selling the coins, you pile them up behind a safety glass for everybody to come and see, then you will have a revenue that will trickle down everyday. I guess that's what the Fisher's are doing with their museum, since they cannot find treasure any more.

 

[Dell Winders]

Or, private museums could do as Florida State Archaeologist do. Have replica's made and fill the State museums with replicas, promote them as history, and charge the gullible public to come in and see fakes.

Donations made by Treasure Hunters, for Museums to display are the real thing. It's a matter of pride, honesty & ethics. We want the public to see what we found. It makes you wonder why State Archaeologist do everything in their power, and practice hypocrisy and deception in their efforts to deter and eliminate private recovery of Treasure & Artifacts? Dell

 

[VOC]

"I guess that's what the Fisher's are doing with their museum, since they cannot find treasure any more".

Alexandre you are getting worse:

http://www.melfisher.com/SalvageOperations/RecentFinds.asp

This is only some of the stuff found last year

 

[Alexandre]

"I guess that's what the Fisher's are doing with their museum, since they cannot find treasure any more".

Alexandre you are getting worse:

http://www.melfisher.com/SalvageOperations/RecentFinds.asp

This is only some of the stuff found last year

Oh yeah, a true motherload or artefacts. All investors have turned rich, I bet.

 

[Trez]

Not to be a jerk...that is so unlike me.
But the Fisher family/poor investors/ and public impact comments followed by the "them there" Archaeologist's who believe their work is far greater and has more impact and substance might make a great new topic...but not under the Iberian olive jars thread IMO.

I am sure the new thread would be quite good, I really do...strange feeling...maybe its only the rum talkin..but
Because we have Archo's that think their work is far more educational/beneficial and has more of a positive impact to society than lets say, example 10,000 coins being sold and or displayed...I'd like to hear diiferent.

Ever walk up to a Archaeological dig in process? how did you feel and what did you walk away with

Just a thought on a new thread may be perfect for some honest opinions...anybody have any? LMAO
Wasn't trying to step on anybodys toes, but the thread took a turn...

Trez

 

[Oceanscience]

Wonderful pics, Oceanscience. Keep them coming.

You see, quite unlike the Bahamas, Brazil would be the right place to have a underwater archaeological museum - they have the shipwrecks, there are millions of Brazilians (São Paulo is the seventh largest city in the world, and number one of the southern hemisphere), and a great majority of them are educated and jut love to have knowledge of their past; the biggest inflow of Brazilian tourists in Portugal is composed of people wanting to know from where were their ancestors). Not only that, but the economy is soaring (it even surpassed Uk's economy last years).

I am going through the pictures of the Santa Ecolastica, in search of Olive Jars. I can't remember any, but maybe I find a shard in the pictures.
In your list you have several "Rosarios". I dove on 2 shipwrecks of that name, If you give some more information, like date and location, I can give some information about the ones I dove on.

Forum threads are fed by feedback. If you supply some information about the shipwrecks you are looking for, other people will come up with some information too.
We can all learn from the information.

About Museums:
The local people usually show little interest in museums. Tourists from far away represent the majority of the visitors.
A place like Nassau, Bahamas is ideally suited for a theme park, where the colorful story of the archipelago's past could be told.

I say the story of the the past, the lore and legends, punctuated and visualized with palpable evidence, in the form of artifacts, to prove their truth. The theme park is only as good as the story tellers skill in telling the story.

For many people, specially in the USA, the words history and museum are boring subjects. Mel Fisher knew that and this is why he called his place a treasure exhibit. His first exhibit was on a replica Galleon, until she sank for the last time. I still remember what she looked like, but not her name.
Peter Throckmorton edited a book, "History under the Sea" however, the US publisher changed the name to "The Sea Remembers", because of the stigma that the word "history" carries in the USA. Apparently the stigma comes from the way that history is being thought at school. (Boring subject)

30 years ago, when I was diving the shipwrecks in Brazil, nobody had any interest in history, shipwrecks or archaeology or artifacts. People considered me a fool, for wasting my time recovering trash from the bottom of the ocean.
The first finders of the Santa Ecolastica, poked on her with an airlift. They happened on one of the cash boxes. It contained a few gold coins and a simple thick (about 30mm x 4mm, we found that one) gold wire and some 500 8 Reales and some of the newly minted Brazilian silver coins.
The silver coins were encrusted of course, so the divers did not recognize them as coins. The airlift scattered the 500 coins all over the wreckage, where we found them, wondering how the wreck seemed to be covered by a rain of silver coins.
They sold the gold coins to a dentist to melt down for tooth fillings and went back to harbor dredging, that at least paid for their daily bread and butter.

When I took a Chinese porcelain cup (from one of the "Rosario's, 1737), to an antique dealer in Rio De Janeiro, he asked where it came from. From the bottom of the sea. "Then it can only be trash that somebody dumped" he said. "We buy our antiques with reputable dealers in London and Paris, we do not buy trash."
As I left the posh shop, red faced, I saw an identical Chinese porcelain cup in the window. It was cracked and had no lid, while mine was perfectly intact and had it's lid.

Have things changed? I don't know. I know that I learned a lot in the meantime. Some about Museums too.

Anyway, my total dive time on the Santa Ecolastica is about 20 hours, including the time with Albanese. I reckon about 70% of the shipwreck is still there, including the scatter trail, where she spilled her guts including the cobs, mingled in the ballast (picture above), before she came to the final resting place.
Ah, yes, the scatter trail goes in a straight line to the skeleton of the sperm whale. Rather a weird coincidence I would say.

One more thing, the Greek freighter "Artemis" with 35,000 tons of iron ingots, nearly sank on top of
the Santa Ecolastica. However, the strong tide dragged the big ship another mile to the south-south east.
Towards the south-southwest, a short distance away, there is the ammunition dump.

And my drawing is from the time I was diving on her. Sometime after, the seismic survey ship snagged it's array on the wreckage of the Santa Ecolastica. this may have "re-arranged" the cannon and anchors a bit.

 

[VOC]

"Oh yeah, a true motherload or artefacts. All investors have turned rich, I bet."

I see Alaxandre, now that your mate is making friends with OME, you have to turn your venom towards the Fishers.

They have very high re-investment rate from their investors, so if they are happy its nothing to do with the likes of you.

Maybe you should ask to have a tour of their facilities, and attend a division week before you make daft comments about them or their investors.

If you cannot make it maybe you might want to spend a few months looking at the world’s largest on-line shipwreck artefact data base:

http://www.historicshipwrecks.com/

They even do it in Portuguese just for you.

Total Artefacts: 189809
Total Photos: 49830
Total Illustrations: 644

 

[Alexandre]

If you cannot make it maybe you might want to spend a few months looking at the world’s largest on-line shipwreck artefact data base:

You mean artefacts like those carried by these "archaeologists"?

 

[ivan salis]

there is a very 'valid" reason to be "armed to the teeth" at certain places & times --ever heard of been boarded by pirates?

real honest to god modern pirates bent on stealing your "artifacts" for their mere gold and silver melt value? --- oh yes they do indeed exist --and they will board and rob your vessel if they can --

there are pirates that board rich persons sailing and motor vessels robbing and killing them and then either sinking the vessel to hide their crimes or else making off with the vessel to be sold "black market wize" to drug smugglers / human "trafficers" or unsuspecting persons looking to buy a vessel in the caribbean / south american areas. -- sea going crimanials would love to hit a vessel loaded with silver and gold --be it the 1700's or 2012.

in my 27 year sea going time frame as a merchant seaman -- the ships i sailed upon were almost boarded 2 times -- once was while in the straights (indonesian waters , close to singapore ) and the other time was when we were going "upriver" in equador --( sadly we had to fight off the thugs with fire hoses , thankfully we were able to "repel boarders" both times -- but quite frankly --I wished to god at those times that I would have had a gun to use on em , i felt very "unarmed" with only a fire hose ) so yeh if i was working on a "project" where armed persons might attempt to rob and kill me , you bet I 'd be armed to the teeth too, with heavy duty fire power (the biggest baddest stuff i could lay my hands on.) peace thru superoir fire power. --smart folks will leave "heavily armed" folks alone , but the dumbs ones will attack and die , thus cleaning up the local area gene pool. (a bit anyway).

 

[VOC]

Alexandre, not sure what two photos from the pirate prone area of the "Maravilla shipwreck" has to do with the world’s largest on-line searchable data base of shipwreck artefacts ( http://www.historicshipwrecks.com/ ) ?

Maybe it was the shock of seeing such a great data base for the first time, and realising that the archaeological community had not done it.

I am surprised you did not show a picture of all the armed guards on "Bom Jesus" project

 

[Oceanscience]

If you cannot make it maybe you might want to spend a few months looking at the world’s largest on-line shipwreck artefact data base:

You mean artefacts like those carried by these "archaeologists"?

Alexandre,

You asked for information on Iberian shipwrecks. I spent a considerable amount of time digging up such information and posted it for you.
You have not given one iota of feedback, but instead you insist in fighting with other members of the forum and even come up with absolutely, totally unrelated pictures showing treasure hunters who have the guts to defend themselves against pirates.
Pirates were a very real constant danger at the time these pictures were taken and they are a real danger still today in many parts of the world.

I am very disappointed in you.

 

[piratediver]

Here is the latest from Castro: Filipe, not Fidel although ideologically they are much alike:

It is not easy to make one rule that fits all cases, is it?

What do you do if you have 500,000 coins, or 2,000 clay pipes from the same box, or a load of Dutch silver bars? Keep them all? Sell half? Hide them all? I have seen museum basements full of stuff that nobody even knows exists, and museum directors that would rather give you a kidney than let you take a look at them... do we want to discuss this problem as well?

I like to insist that the problem is not what you do with the artifacts. Museums sell and trade artifacts all the time. It is how you acquire them. Is it through careful excavation? Do we want to add, to all the problems of an excavation, a bunch of investors pressing for a higher return on their investment? Cost controllers breathing down our necks? Feverish egos with lawyers barking at us that we are wasting time?

The more I think about this, the more I believe that we have to be honest and creative and careful, and open minded. Of course it is difficult to be honest and forthcoming in a discussion when the other side is not always honest and forthcoming. But perhaps because I have to live among the taliban here in Texas, I am getting tired of moralists and uncompromising saints. Make no mistakes: I am not getting mellow. I am just fed up with the taliban and their little games. I want to see results, and we are loosing the war against treasure hunters and looters. The sale of stolen antiques exploded in the Bush years. The demand is so high that they are robbing stuff from museums.

Unlike Jim and Paulo, I never liked to wait for anything, and right now I am just enjoying watching the boat getting out of the reef and moving somewhere. Perhaps there is a waterfall after the curve and we are all going to drawn, but putting up with the same gurus for 25 years, playing the same games, wasting their little lives hating their colleagues, sitting on their little notes of their little shipwrecks, playing their pathetic little power wars, and trying to stop everybody - not just the treasure hunters - from touching anything, was getting on my nerves.

I hope that Greg keeps stirring the pot and forces us to think and move in some direction. I hope we will be brave and honest, and fight a good fight. Right now to me this is all about the flow of information and the means to verify its accuracy. I am not worrying about how many coins are too many coins.

 

[ivan salis]

SIR Robert Marx or "bob" as most call him , oddly enough has been "knighted" by none other than the spanish govt itself * for all the archie work he has done over the years -- funny that you should disagree with the spanish govt about his "qualifacations " as a archie -- you been "knighted" yet by them?