Olive jar or native Indian pot.

[AUVnav]

Much as I hate to be the stick in the mud...
without context, this is just another ambiguous obscure artefact.

If my house burned down, a recovery might surmise that the Phoenicians hitched a ride with Portuguese and Spanish explorers and brought an Antikythera Device to Melbourne, Australia in the 1st century BC.

this is the difference between treasure hunting and archaeology....

 

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[Zodiacdiverdave]

I would really like to thank you all for your highly informed, expert opinions on this jar. It is quite amazing that we can now talk to other divers around the world about such subjects with such ease. I value all your inputs and I know we will never hammer down the exact circumstances that resulted in this Olive Jar coming to rest in our northern waters. There is no shipwreck to tie it to, this is a random find of a discarded ship's preserving jar, but with your help we were able to surmise that this is in fact an olive jar and from an era that was early in North America's colonization and is an artefact that is worth conserving and helps tell the story of Halifax Harbour and our continent.
Thanks again everyone,
zodiacdiverdave

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Zodiac: get a copy of " Pottery from Spanish Shipwrecks 1500-1800" by Mitchell W. Marken. U of Florida press, 1994. Amazon probably has it. Verrazzano was Italian and explored Narragansett Bay right outside my office in 1524.

Thanks, whydadiver for the info. I looked up the book and it is quite expensive ($275) to buy so I am going to try some resource libraries. We just don't come across Spanish pottery that much for the expense but I am sure it would be an interesting read.
ZDD

 

[AUVnav]

ZDD,

Actually, I think you missed the point. Value is based on providence and context. You have made a jump that is unsubstantiated, and in the art and artefact realm, can be to your dismay.

As an example, I can buy a broken piece of Roman pottery for $10, throw it off the dock at Vancouver, New York, or Halifax, does not increase the value.

Context.

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

ZDD,

Actually, I think you missed the point. Value is based on providence and context. You have made a jump that is unsubstantiated, and in the art and artefact realm, can be to your dismay.

As an example, I can buy a broken piece of Roman pottery for $10, throw it off the dock at Vancouver, New York, or Halifax, does not increase the value.



Context.

The point is we can only surmise on what it is and it's historical value. I am not and neither is the finder interested in the dollar value. The best guess is that it is old and it is an olive jar and very rare in these parts. A lot of archaeologists will try and wrap a story around their finds and make it believable so they can sell their colleagues and others on there beliefs but in reality it is only conjecture.
I just wanted an informed opinion.
ZDD

 

[Alexandre]

I would say that a find like that can prove that an harbour will get any kind of disposal thrown into it. In Croatia, you find a lot of old Roman amphorae shreds... in Halifax, you get Olive Jars... it does make sense.

 

[whydahdiver]

AUV: the word you were seeking is provenance, not Providence, which is the largest city in R.I. As for Zodiac, I too do a lot of harbor diving and given the amount of trade that took place in Halifax it is not surprising you find such a wide variety of artifacts.

WHYDAH Diver

 

[ScubaFinder]

If my house burned down, a recovery might surmise that the Phoenicians hitched a ride with Portuguese and Spanish explorers and brought an Antikythera Device to Melbourne, Australia in the 1st century BC.

this is the difference between treasure hunting and archaeology....

Indeed sir, only an archaeologist would come up with that conjecture about Phoenecians riding with Spaniards....a treasure hunter would say "Hmmm, with all these artifacts around, this must be the burned down house of an archaeologist".

I think I was as fair to you as you were to treasure hunters there, no? We don't deal in conjecture, but we do look for correct provenance.

 

[AUVnav]

sorry about the mis-spelled term..

haha scuba finder! really a treasure hunter would conclude that....

or just take the valuables wondering how much they are worth?

Much the same as a late 1700's Spanish silver coin, without context or provenance, the value is basically spot price.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Both!

 

[AUVnav]

Exactly!
Did I mention I live on a 40m boat?

look at the recent example...

a menu is a piece of paper,
a menu from the Titanic is worth $120,000!
You are much more of an underwater archaeologist than you will admit!

Actually, when I look around, I always think a few deep thoughts, especially after a few glasses of port..

In the future, if an archaeologist came upon my site, during the excavation, in a single layer, they would find all of this around me...
they would be like WTF!

The other interesting thought,
we look at the hieroglyphs of the Egyptians or the Mayans, take years to unravel what they may mean...
I look at the hieroglyphs (buttons at the top of this reply box) and think that in the future, some one will be spending years of their lives trying to decipher these! (damn, they are even square with rounded corners...)

 

[JT]

We would try to find more info around here but our pursuit of history is not welcome with our museums and they have in the past tried to prevent bottle and artifact diving in our waters.

That's typical, sad, and ridiculous...all rolled into one.

They don't want to crawl around on the bottom of a cold, muddy harbor retrieving bottles and artifacts...but they don't want you to do it, either. They'd rather something either sit there and be lost to the elements, or destroyed by a trawl or boat anchor.

Your pieces here and your other thread are indeed intriguing. Without a known wreck to tie them to for provenance, it's impossible to know when they wound up on the bottom. It's likely that they were just discarded into the harbor, but they're still fascinating pieces of history to me.

Without knowing the history of your area, is it possible that there was a settlement or fort in that area populated by Spaniards, or someone with a Mediterranean influence? That might eliminate the possibility of those jugs simply being discarded from a visiting ship...

 

[maipenrai]

About the only thing we can be sure of, is that Canada should be returned to Spain!

 

[ScubaFinder]

About the only thing we can be sure of, is that Canada should be returned to Spain!

AUV, too true about the Titanic Menu, I couldn't come up with a better example if I tried. Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs = ancient smilies. LMAO Me thinks you need to share some of that port with me, it sounds like some good stuff.

You are correct, I am more of an archaeologist than I like to admit in public...I like to do things correctly is all. I don't believe that I require a diploma to do these things correctly, and I don't believe that the sale of certain redundant artifacts is an unforgivable sin. Other than that, I am a rather unpublished, under-appreciated nautical archaeologist. :-)

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

That's typical, sad, and ridiculous...all rolled into one.

They don't want to crawl around on the bottom of a cold, muddy harbor retrieving bottles and artifacts...but they don't want you to do it, either. They'd rather something either sit there and be lost to the elements, or destroyed by a trawl or boat anchor.

Your pieces here and your other thread are indeed intriguing. Without a known wreck to tie them to for provenance, it's impossible to know when they wound up on the bottom. It's likely that they were just discarded into the harbor, but they're still fascinating pieces of history to me.

Without knowing the history of your area, is it possible that there was a settlement or fort in that area populated by Spaniards, or someone with a Mediterranean influence? That might eliminate the possibility of those jugs simply being discarded from a visiting ship...

Thanks JT, you are right these items are fascinating pieces of history. While the Spanish were interested in the gold, silver and emeralds their cousins the Basque and the Portuguese were looking for fish. This is evident by the 16th century, Basque fishing boat found in Labrador and the 17th century Portuguese Astrolabe found in Newfoundland. These items speak of a time prior to the settlement of Halifax in 1749 when the Basque and Portuguese would sail to North America for the summer months to fish and dry their catch or render the oil from whales.
Now All I have to do is find one of the Astrolabes.
ZDD

Red Bay National Historic Site : Labrador Coastal Drive

Mushrow Astrolabe-Historical Discovery