Queens Dowry...

[Chagy]

Escribania de Camara 55C- Autos fechos sobre haver venido sobre estas costas. English attack on salvor's site. Havana Jan 13 1716, Testimony of Pedro de la Vega (I am not going to write the entire thing just enough to prove that Corrigans is the Capitana)The fallowing day at 2 am they landed men between the reales of the Almiranta and Capitana. They firts robbed the the Real of the Almiranta and then marched south to the Real of the Capitana.

 

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[Chagy]

Consulado de Cadiz papers Cadiz 854 Witness Joseph Palermo The next site from the patache was the Capitana, naturally since it lies south of the Almiranta. The ship of Salmon was as interesting but lay another 6 or 7 miles to the Northward and had they not seen two threatening sloops they would not doubt gone to it.

 

[elle]

Hi Everyone,

If one translates Escribania de Camara 55C, it does not say the direction the pirates marched. It only said the Spaniards fled south.
For Cadiz 854, what you wrote above was not a direct translation, but only the speculation of the modern-day author from the Haskins papers.
Palermo went to his next site after the patache, which was the Capitana. It did not say the Capitana was the next flagship in line.

I have to admit ou8acracker2 is pretty brilliant in his interpretation on this matter. As much as I'd love to write out all the research, I simply
don't have the time. We also have to leave some suspense for the book or no one will read it! I guarantee everything will be fully explained and major
credit will be going to Chagy for his help and excellence in research! (Thank you Chagy!)

L

p.s. If I have a change in travel plans and make it to the cookout, I'll be happy to explain further. It's easier to show and tell than writing everything out.

 

[Chagy]

Elle it was an honor to work, help and contribute in your project, thanks for letting me be a part of it. For the record elle is a good friend and I admire her work big time, with that said, this is not personal just research.

I will give you the Escribania one just because there are 2 translations one done by Nancy which says south and one done by Haskins which does not says south and I would trust more Haskins how ever even Haskins in his notes says that after reading all the documents we was certain that Corrigans was the Capitana but Cadiz 854 is not an speculation it reads “Testimony word by word”

Over the years I have been able to prove wrong many famous authors and researchers so I bet you can prove me wrong to…lol ….you well know I don’t base my work on theories I always back up my words with a good source…keep up the good work!!!!

All the best,

Chagy…..

 

[elle]

There was only one Capitana and one Almiranta, and the Capitana was always the ship which the General sailed on. From archival and material evidence, the Cabin site is the Capitana and Corrigan’s is the Almiranta.

All the Best,
Laura Strolia J

 

[ou8acracker2]

Elle...that is fascinating. Now my question is were these switches before the treasure was loaded?

 

[Chagy]

Yes I had read this before but this only changes the name of the vessel at the wreck site but it doesn’t change the fact that the Capitana (what ever her name was) wrecked south of the Almiranta….

 

[elle]

A.G.I., Cadiz. Consulados, legajo 855, lists order of wrecked ships with Ubilla's Capitana being north of the Almiranta.
I have more evidence than that even, but as I said before, need to get back to work

 

[ou8acracker2]

Well now hasnt this just gotten interesting.

 

[bigscoop]

Well now hasnt this just gotten interesting.

Very interesting!

 

[ScubaFinder]

WOW - Definitely interesting...Luis, I will have Laura's book with me next time I see you...you will enjoy it! Having known both of you for many years, and Greg almost as long...this whole thing intrigues me. I don't know anyone who has more hands on knowledge of the 1715 fleet than Greg Bounds, and after working with him in the Dominican Republic I know he is a master of the survey arts and no slouch in research either. I also know that Luis is a great researcher, I just hired him to work on my latest project. Laura has been stunning me with her revelations for 6 years now, with no signs of letting up any time soon. That said, I don't know who is right, but I'm reading with anticipation.....

The one thing we know for sure, is that we don't really know which ship is which. I don't believe for a second that the Nieves lies at Douglas Beach, nor do I believe Pepper Park holds The Urca de Lima. I think Greg has the most accurate statement "When we find the bottom of the ship, then we will know".

I have a lot of respect for all of you, and will be following along with interest.

Jas

 

[ou8acracker2]

Im going with Laura on this one. I have a hunch she is probably right.

I just dont understand how a bottom isnt found yet. The ballest piles were at one location because obv they held the actual bottom to the sea floor. However, if the next deck up, or the hold area that held the treasure, floated away. It couldnt of gone very far. With all the holes blown into the sand and 65 years of searching not including the spanish salvage operations. You would figure someone would have stumbled across it. Its weight to area ratio is minimal so therefore it wouldnt sink in the sand to awfully far, or at least thats what logic would denote..

anyone want to shed some light on possible reasons why a bottom hasnt been located?

 

[GOHO]

Really, there were two Capitanas and two Almirantas that made up the 1715 fleet.... One was Ubilla's and one was Echeverz's.... Ubilla was in command over the entire fleet but if they had to go to battle then Echeverz took over command. Echeverz was in charge of the Tierra Firme Squadron (South American Fleet) and Ubilla commanded the New Spain Flota (Mexican fleet) but together the two flotas made up the 1715 fleet so in reality there were Two Capitanas and two Almirantas.


If after leaving Ubilla's Almiranta they marched to the real of his Capitana and when they got close to the Real the Spaniards fled south, then they had to march south to get to the Capitana. The Spainards would not flee toward the approching pirates... they fled south away from them!

 

[GOHO]

anyone want to shed some light on possible reasons why a bottom hasnt been located?

Its a BIG OCEAN!!!!

 

[GOHO]

elle, Can you explain to me how a bell that belonged to a padre onboard the Capitana ended up in Corrigans scatter if he was according to you onboard the Cabin wreck?

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Im going with Laura on this one. I have a hunch she is probably right.

I just dont understand how a bottom isnt found yet. The ballest piles were at one location because obv they held the actual bottom to the sea floor. However, if the next deck up, or the hold area that held the treasure, floated away. It couldnt of gone very far. With all the holes blown into the sand and 65 years of searching not including the spanish salvage operations. You would figure someone would have stumbled across it. Its weight to area ratio is minimal so therefore it wouldnt sink in the sand to awfully far, or at least thats what logic would denote..

anyone want to shed some light on possible reasons why a bottom hasnt been located?

For the same reason that cannon lay 4,000 feet apart on Corrigan's, it was one heck of a Hurricane and as Greg said it's a BIG OCEAN!
These wrecks didn't run up on a reef while day sailing. It was a horrific Hurricane that smashed some of them to pieces.

Some salvors have gone full circle when it comes to shipwrecks, not only are we researchers and historians but we also have first hand experience with the wreck sites themselves.

Don't worry ou8acracker2 there's still about 1.2 million silver coins left on the wrecks of the Cabin wreck and Corrigan's alone.

 

[GOHO]

something else to think about......


The Capitana held 122 Tons of silver when it sank.... Thats around 80 cars!!! The Almiranta held around 100 tons.

Still unaccounted for is 9 tons on the Almiranta and 28 Tons of Silver onboard the Capitana....

 

[ou8acracker2]

Au and Goho..

I agree its a huge ocean, just asking curious questions. I love my history, mechanics, and ocean dynamics. Im simply throwing questions out that my curious 23 year old brain is wondering.
Theres also 300 years of other HUGE storms to account for.
not worried about value or what is down there. Just seems likely someone would have stumbled upon something by now.
But eventually, some lucky person will...and more than likely by accident too :-)

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Maybe one is confusing which Queen's jewels?

The ones placed on the Capitana or these;
Escribania de Camara 55C - Havana, Torres to Armenta, 28 Sept 1715.
Miguel de Lima has told him that in the Real of the Refuerzo there are some jewels and treasure sent by the Viceroy of New Spain for the Queen.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

ou8acracker2,
HAHAHA, this is what we do when the wind is blowing (or if you get landlocked ) - research and looking at scatter charts over and over and over....