Queens Dowry...

[ou8acracker2]

So as I was in physics lab letting my mind wander on everything else, but physics...I started thinkin of the 1715 fleet.
regarding the queens dowry..Ubillas boat was said to have the 62 chests of "gifts" on its manifest..however, it hasnt been found and that sight is supposed to be in Vero..
this ship was rather large, weighted down, and rather slow.

heres my train of thought..they traveled with the San Miguel, which was a fast war frigate made to outrun other boats. This boat hasnt been found. Knowing full well that the queen wouldnt marry the king without the dowry, they knew the importance of getting that back safe. That was priority number one.
Why would they stick the treasure on the biggest slowest ship with the main captain? If perhaps they ran into pirates and/or someone on board in cahoots that could inform pirates of so said treasure, logic would denote that doesnt make any sense.

As long as the chests were accounted for on a manifest, it wouldnt much matter what ship it was on just as long as it was accounted for. My thinking is they would say it was on the biggest ship with the most men so the pirates would be most occupied with this boat and then stick it on the warship that could outrun anything, the San Miguel. it had 22 guns and was quick so it could defend itself to some extent if needed but it could outrun pirates and storms (although that failed).

If you look at maritime ventures and land ventures of mass money in todays time..they stick REALLY valuable goods on very discrete vessels and vehicles to prevent any takover. They still carry money and stuff on labeled money carrying vessels but generally try to be sneaky with valuable goods.

This would make sense as to why it hasnt been found yet. Those chest probably contained some intense treasures that would be very clearly the best treasure out of the payload since they were "fit for a queen".

More than likely they wouldnt write about the dowry in letters either because if someone intercepted the letter, spain could fail. Also, if they knew the location of this dowry, they would have posted most men on that single ship and left the other gold and silver for later. it was important but not so much as the dowry.

what are everyones opinions on this thought? Im bored waiting for my physics lecture haha

 

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[bigscoop]

I had a similar post just about a week ago:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/shipwrecks/290720-queens-dowry.html
A couple of theories here but very little chatter on the subject so far.

 

[ou8acracker2]

Surprised, think it would have been a good discussion. I like the way you think though...would just make a lot of sense to me. Also, someone gave me the opinion that they divided it all up..if you lose one boat, you dont lose all the treasure. Also a valid point.

 

[bigscoop]

Impossible to know for sure? However, I often wonder if it didn't find its way to shore somehow. There were a number of survivors, most of the ships were not lost that far off shore, the Dowry certainly would have been a priority. Hard to say?

 

[ou8acracker2]

They did salvage a whole bunch of chests off all the boats carrying chests...they would have tried to find the important ones first Im sure...however, if they did get those chests back, there surely would have been a letter or document that the chests were safe..but there also isnt letters or documents saying they didnt find them.
The San Miguel has no surivors and never been found again...boys scuddled the ship then just took off with the valuables if it was on that ship? Also very plausable...they would have brought those chests back to St. Augustine and there would have been documentation once they got within the safety of the castle walls. Something fishy happened to those chests or they are still in the ocean somewhere were no one is thinking of looking.

 

[bigscoop]

Sad part is, most of the truly interested will never be allowed to physically conduct a search. I truly love these type of mysteries but.......hard to get too inspired these days.

However, I can't imagine scuttling a ship with the Dowry on it, or ever giving up attempts to recover the Dowry if it was known to still be there. Unless it was "too deep" or simply wasn't there?

 

[ou8acracker2]

I know..dang shame..No i meant, they grabbed the dowry, scuddled the ship, and essentially faked their deaths.
I would bet there are a bundle of letters somewhere that tell exactly where it is.
Those just havent been found yet.

Apparently the queen never got the dowry, she was set on getting it, but married him anyway? Perhaps she did get it just no one knows. A search might be worth while to look at the records of the ships that left St. Augustine in the same time period and check their manifests..might have "62 chests of gifts" on it

 

[bigscoop]

I've never actually seen an itemized list of what was in the Dowry, think it would be interesting to start there if such a list exist?

 

[ou8acracker2]

Thats key..."gifts" werent taxable so they didnt need to make specific lists of what they were..hence the plain 62 chests of gifts while everything else was defined to exact amounts...Im sure there is a list somewhere, Im sure the queen would want to know exactly what she was getting and the total worth..however, they wouldnt have been associated with the ships, or the list was on the ship and went down with it. No one would need to know the gifts except her and the king would not have memorized all of it. Perhaps there was a copy at the port in havannah, but it was likely forgotten or just unfound if it got shiped to archives...ALSO, the other storage place they had in London from the late 1600's could have had it, then it caught fire and all the documents were burned and they only have from 1800 and up.

 

[GOHO]

The Capitana broke into many pieces and scattered for miles accross the ocean. Chances are that the Dowry is still lying on the sea floor somewhere down range. In all of modern times there really hasnt been much salvege done on the Capitana. Most of the excavations have been near the main wreckage. Heck, Even the bottom to the Capitana that held all the silver hasnt been found in modern times, let alone the Dowry!


Just gonna take alot of HARD work and TIME to find it!

 

[Trembull]

Just gonna take alot of HARD work and TIME to find it!

And Allot of Dead Presidents !

 

[GOHO]

You Got it!!!!

 

[bigscoop]

Well, if there is no itemized list of items in the Queen's dowry, then how would you know you ever found any of it? Could be some of it has already been found? I don't know.....just a curious thought.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

17 Nov 1716.
Investigation was made into locating the Queen's jewels which were sent by the President of the Audiencia of Guadalajara aboard Ubilla's Capitana. They were not found during the salvage operations.

Testimony of Luaurriaga, Master of Silver on Ubilla's Almiranta, 18 Nov 1716.
He verifies that the Queen's jewels were delivered to Antonio de Potflis, Master of Silver on Ubilla's Capitana, who died in the disaster. The jewels were kept in Potfis' chest of clothing or his portable desk, neither of which turned up in the salvage operations. He is sure, that because the currents in that area, which are very strong, that the desk or chest of clothes with the jewels were carried away like the serones or bags of indigo and cochineal.


Cadiz, Testimony of Armenta, 18 Nov 1715.
Armenta was responsible for the recovery of all the treasure. He verified that the Queen's jewels were put on Ubilla's Capitana but did not turn up during the salvage


List of jewels sent to the Queen aboard the Capitana of Ubilla's Flota, sent by the President of Guadalajara, Mexico.

A. Two pair of gold earrings (drop earrings); one pair was in 3 parts, the lower part being in the shape of a pineapple with 129 pearls (very small ones); the other pair was smaller and each had 38 small pearls and on one extremity there was a gold amulet. Both pair weighed 3 and 1/16 ounces.
B. A rosary made of coral the size of chickpeas with the "Our Father" in gold and with three small medals and a small rose also of gold, weighing 3 1/16th ounces.
C. Two pearls in the shape of an almond, weighing 28 carats; another round pearl, weighing 8 carats; 98 inferior pearls, much smaller in size.
D. A gold jewel in which it appears to have the image of St. Clara.
E. Three gold rings, two plain and one with an emerald.


"Bigscoop wrote:
Sad part is, most of the truly interested will never be allowed to physically conduct a search. I truly love these type of mysteries but.......hard to get too inspired these days."

What do you mean? Queen's Jewels LLC allows sub-contractors on the 1715 Fleet.
Also/or one could invest with a current operation.

Get inspired, these wrecks are workable and "protected" from the greed of Spain!!

 

[bigscoop]

Thanks Dreamer!
I was expecting a huge chest full of gold jewelry adorned with monster sized emeralds, etc.
If only I were a younger man (just turned 54 yesterday). If I happen to find anything resembling these items on the beach I'll let you know.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

54?!!?
Capt Harold Holden worked the 1715 Fleet well into his 70's pulling anchor lines like everyone else and "mom" Jo of the Goldhawg is working it in her well ummm never tell a ladies age but she's "older"!!

Now if you're saying you're 54 in Pirate years...!!!



Dig today, you never know what tomorrow will bring!

 

[bigscoop]

I hear ya, I'm still a young and fairly healthy 54.....just went through a ton of old pics this morning and was thinking about loading them into albums but that would require getting the scanner out of, "one of the many unmarked totes?" Still have a ton of pics and info I can't even find? Never move on short notice!

 

[ou8acracker2]

AU_DREAMERS.....do you have any more records like that? Ive never seen those before

 

[Chagy]

One can only hope that Greg is right and the jewels are still in the bottom waiting for him...lol...But also keep in mind that at the time of the wreck they new exactly were the bottom of the Capitana was...Also keep in mind that in 1720's the King ordered Solorzanos arrest because he found out that he had stolen more of the recovered cargo than what he turned in to the King. When they went to arrest Solorzano he escaped in a vessels with his son and later on was arrested. What if he had the jewels and tuck them with him when he escaped and buried them somewhere? So many things could have happen however Greg is right there is a section of the Capitana that has not been found in modern days...

All the best,

Chagy....

 

[GOHO]

Thanks Chagy! It is true we do not know if a Pirate or even a Spanish salvor found the Jewels and tuck them away but chances are i dont think so. The Capitana burst open and over the course of the storm broke into a million pieces so i think the chest or desk or what ever the jewels were stored in floated away. One day some one is going to be in the right place at the right time and.... POW!!!


Chagy, I do have to disagree with one thing and that is the known location of the Capitana. There was very few survivors on the Capitana and i believe they speculated the depth at 5 brazas because they knew it sank "A Great Distance from Shore" so the early letters say 5 brazas but after it was salvaged most accounts say 3 and a half brazas.... but they did find the bottom within just a few days once they started looking for it....

Who knows?


When its found then we'll know for sure!!!!!