Older Spanish Shipwrecks

[bigscoop]

Have any of the ships of the 1556 Nueva Espana Flota or the 1555 Flota de Tierre Firme ever been located? Seems with as much searching that has been done over the years along the Florida coast that at least one of them, or perhaps dated coins from these wrecks, would have eventually been stumbled upon.

 

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[bigscoop]

Here’s a short summary as to why I’m so interested in, and perhaps so miffed about, the older Spanish wrecks on the Ais coast. What’s interesting is that this short summary includes documented accounts as well as information from various archeological summaries. In this information there are three major accounts of documented references in regards to the Ais looting and the enormous amount of treasure they salvaged from these earlier Spanish shipwrecks, also included is archeological references to dated coins and other artifacts from the period having been found on land in this same general area.

The first shipwreck account is from Laudoniere, his voyages would have taken place in the mid-1500's when he wrote, “…the greatest part of these riches, washed, as they say, out of Spanish ships, which were commonly cast away in this straight” Note, that he uses the word “commonly”. Another interesting aspect is that he claims this wealth was “washed to shore” which indicates that the wrecks were not too far off shore.

The second account is from Fontanedo, again, his voyages would have taken place in the mid – 1500’s when he wrote, “The King of Ais and the King of Jeaga are poor Indians as regards the earth, for there are no land of silver or of gold where they are, and to say it at once, they are rich only by the sea from the vessels which have been lost well laden with those metals.” And a bit later Fontanedo concludes, ‘I desire to speak more of the riches found by the Indians of Ais, which perhaps were to be as much as a million of dollars, or over, in bars of silver, in gold and in jewelry made at the hands of Mexican Indians which the passengers were carrying with them.” Again, a second account of large amounts of riches having come from the wrecks near the lands of the Ais.

The third account comes from John Sparks, the chronicler of Hawkins’s voyages that would have also taken place in the mid- 1500’s when Sparks wrote; “…how they came of this gold and silver, the Frenchmen knew not yet, but by guess, who having traveled to the southwest of the cape, having found the same dangers by means of sandy banks, as we also have the same, and there finding mast which were the wrecks of Spaniards coming from Mexico, judged they had gotten treasure from them.”

Now keep in mind that all of these accounts are from the mid -1500’s, now here comes the real bombshell. In the Spanish archives there is an account of the following 1556 Spanish fleet loss, “The Indians of the King of Ais have taken more then a million pesos in gold and silver and much jewelry near Cape Canaveral.” The same can be said of this account, “several ships of the Flota de Tierra Firme (treasure fleet) were lost south of Cape Canaveral.” And there is a 1530 account that claims, “A large number of ships were lost near Cape Canaveral."

Going a step further, there are other richly laden ships that went down near “Ais” between 1530 and 1565, and archeological field reports establish that coins dating from this period (1543 being the earliest) have been uncovered during archeological digs in this same general area, at what is believed to have been the old Ais principle town. How did these coins get there if these documented, richly laden wrecks were not in this same general area? “Gold and silver bars…” so obviously these were not deep water wrecks, but rather they were wrecks that these Indians could easily access. One could assume that these items were carried to shore by survivors, but if so, why are there no accounts of these survivors? If the Spanish had somehow managed to salvage these wrecks, which is highly doubtful, then why no records of that activity? How did those date correct coins and artifacts find there way into the location of what is thought to be the site of the principle Ais village? How would deep-water gold and silver wash upon the shore in such quantity, a quantity that was noticeable enough and “rich” enough to be made mention of by these early explorers? Again, quoting John Sparks,… “finding mast which were the wrecks of Spaniards coming from Mexico, judged they had gotten treasure from them.”

In my mind these simply can’t be deep water wrecks, probably no more then a couple of miles off the coast, if that, perhaps much closer, and some of them have to be within a moderate distance up and down the coast from this suspected principle Ais town. I suspect they lay much like those wrecks of the 1715 fleet, but perhaps with another 150 years of sand, perhaps crustacean, and deterioration. But they clearly have to be there, somewhere. Way too much treasure found its way to the Ais shore for all of these to have been deep-water wrecks. So where are they? Why have no trace of them been found? This is my driving curiosity. Would love to hear your more experienced thoughts.

 

[ou8acracker2]

Since ive been chatting with you alot of messaging, I will add my geological opinion in regards to the shoals

if they did wreck on the shoals of cape canaveral, which is plausable, because that is just a wreck trap...the wrecks would have been shallow enough to dive yet a good bit offshore. However, in 450 years, the amount of sand that has shifted in, on, and around those shoals is absurd. If there was a shipwreck there 450 years ago. It would be covered in more sand than plausible to move, however, due to the sand still shfiting, they could lay just a few feet under that sand.
Most of that entire place is the wildlife refuge just north of that so no one can look in there.

Far as the wrecks..no one has found a salvage camp like Wagner did for the 1715 so its hard to get a direct triangulation or bearing. No indian middens have been found really in that area because many got destroyed. If you think about it, the camp wagner had found..if he didnt look, there would be a house on that and no one would have known it existed.
There has got to be a place where solid evidence is of a place people hung out, sat, and dropped items. Indians were dumb so they had a camp very close to that place to store their goods, then walk them back to the main village. It just hasnt been found yet. Whomever does it going to be very lucky, and then from that luck, will be able to piece together other missing links thus becoming more fortunate.

interesting topic though. Kudos on keeping that think tank of yours working.

 

[bigscoop]

"The shifting sand"....."450 years of sand".....that's exactly what I believe may be the case. I don't think those wrecks are that far off shore, probably closer then we believe, just buried too deep to locate.

 

[bigscoop]

True, these Indians had trade & tribute, but the fact that Spanish coins dating in the 1500's have been found in what is relatively a small region on the East Coast, and that this is also the said region of the Ais and the Cape, as described........ I seriously doubt these Indians ventured to far out into the open sea in their canoes to loot shipwrecks, especially in deep water. It would seem those ships have to be in this region.....somewhere?

If i were diving a wreck, and I found a coin predating that wreck I might naturally assume it came from the wreck.......but not a coin that pre-dates the wreck by even 25 years. This coinage was being taken back to Spain and I can't imagine coins minted too much prior to the cargo dates being a part of the same wreck. A few years, perhaps, but anything prior to this would raise my eyebrow and be worth investigating a bit further. I don't know, just my personal opinion, on what little I really know about it.

 

[bigscoop]

From everything I've been able to get my hands to research, the mentioned wrecks have to be somewhere between Coco and Fort Pierce and not that far off shore. They might be under yards of sand and coral, but it sure seems like they have to be there somewhere. Question is, even if they were there, under all that sand and coral, how could you go about locating them given that they've not shown up yet?

 

[bigscoop]

These would have also been smaller ships.....yes? Nao, carracks, etc.

 

[Trembull]

Indians were dumb so they had a camp very close to that place to store their goods, then walk them back to the main village. It just hasnt been found yet. QUOTE]

Cracker
They can't be too dumb, Like you said "It just hasnt been found yet" If it's be over 300 years,

 

[ou8acracker2]

Werent.....Haha that was a typo. In no way am I calling Indians dumb. Appologies

 

[ou8acracker2]

If theres a will, theres a Bigscoop haha

Ive found many articles about mounds in that entire area..theres a large amount that arent as heavily documented as you may think. A village could literatly be ANYWHERE. Hard to find when houses were built on top of them

 

[bigscoop]

No disturbing of mounds, and before I ever actually start searching I'll have it down to a few choice areas, and it will have to be done at the right time. Anyone know how to summon a very strong controllable hurricane? And who made this page so wide?

 

[Salvor6]

Archaeologists have no qualms about destroying Indian mounds. There was a 14' tall Indian mound on Hog Island at the mouth of the Suwannee River. Archaeologists from the University of Florida in Gainesville destroyed the mound. Its now just a 3' tall hill. Where are all the artifacts? No one knows.

 

[ou8acracker2]

Salvor 6...EBAY would be a good place to look haha

 

[ivan salis]

the ais were plunders of wrecks --and there were lots of vessels lost in "the straits'--the slot between the florida coast and the bahamain area -- in the early days --spanish sailors were well known for using "dead reckoning" navagation to do so they had to stay with visual range of the shoreline of florida to use known landmarks as navagational aids * this left them in shallow waters when the sudden often violent storms hit them -- normally speaking it took the ships hitting something to break them apart or a few other disaters --either hitting other ships , bottom bouncing their hulls in shallow waters , rolling over on the sides , shifting cargos -- or of course combat with other vessels . but normally speaking they did not just "fall apart' generally speaking --oh of course some very unsound , unseaworthy vessels might have broken up in a storm in deeper type waters but its quite rare , I'm sure compared to the way they were 'normally' lost by being caught up in the shallow waters when storms hit.

 

[bigscoop]

I'm still researching the ships that would have been used then, prior to the larger vessels a bit later on. From what I can tell, they were less responsive and also much smaller with less draft. Again, from what I'm gathering, it is very likely that they could have been pushed into much shallower water given the increase in storm swell. And I'm also guessing it wouldn't have taken near the storm force to cause them great difficulties VS the larger vessels. But I'm just guessing....

 

[ivan salis]

as a near 30 year merchant mariner myseld and with a with a family backgroumd of my family being sailors on my dads side for close to 300 years down the family tree ( i was the last of the "line") -- i can say that i agree with your thought procress biigscoop

 

[bigscoop]

as a near 30 year merchant mariner myseld and with a with a family backgroumd of my family being sailors on my dads side for close to 300 years down the family tree ( i was the last of the "line") -- i can say that i agree with your thought procress biigscoop

What little thought process I have left, I try to use till it hurts............(which isn't very long anymore).

 

[ivan salis]

my brain is one of the few things that I got that works better now than when I was younger --only because I have learned much more stuff thru the years * everything else ? not so great --- oh well when doing research its the brain that does the "heavy liftting" thankfully .

 

[bigscoop]

my brain is one of the few things that I got that works better now than when I was younger --only because I have learned much more stuff thru the years * everything else ? not so great --- oh well when doing research its the brain that does the "heavy liftting" thankfully .

.....Ever feel like a salvage yard? A few good parts here and there.

 

[bigscoop]

I need to find more on these wrecks.