May 23, 2012, 02:46 PM
What are these?
One of the members here asked me to post this for them. Found near the wreck of the Dove here on E. Coast of Florida (don't know exactly where this spot is myself). They look like necklace charms to me, or maybe they were vest tabs... or who knows? Any ideas?
May 23, 2012 02:46 PM
May 23, 2012, 05:33 PM
One looks just like a US quarter!
not sure about the other, any idea of the composition?
(they could be Jenn Marx earrings from a dive)
Last edited by AUVnav; May 23, 2012 at 05:35 PM.
May 24, 2012, 04:11 AM
First post but long time lurker. History, shipwrecks and archeology fascinates me but I am not an active treasurehunter. I only dream about it
Registered just to reply to your post. Could these be the decorative tops for musket powder bottles which hung on a bandolier?
Bandolier of a Musketeer
Last edited by LeBaiton; May 24, 2012 at 04:12 AM.
May 24, 2012, 09:20 AM
I like the idea about the musket charger caps, but I think they are too small. They look like silver plated copper to me, but, I don't know for sure. I'll ask.
May 24, 2012, 03:06 PM
discovering & preserving our past for future generations
The was a British slave ship called Dove lost off the St Augustine bar.
It looks like a charm of some type to me as well but the hollow insides do appear as it they would fit as a cap over something.
May 24, 2012, 08:45 PM
The finder PM'd me and says they are pure silver and weigh 9 gr. a piece. Yep, that sounds like the wreck. These were found "near" there.
May 24, 2012, 11:21 PM
I might be wrong, but I believe those are milagros (MILAGRO means MIRACLE).
These charms were offerings to a particular saint for help in curing an ailment. Many milagros were shaped as a specific body part (head might have meant a person got headaches). They were usually created with silver or tin, but wax and other metals were also used. The charms could have been rounded or dimensional (like those in the pictures), and not just flat. Some were designed to be only a quarter of an inch in size.
The charms were part of the Roman Catholic Church (folk Catholicism) and used as devotions. The Catholic faith evolved alongside many different cultures, so these would have been important in Latin America, and really, all over the world. Ones in Europe were called EX-VOTOS (meaning OFFERINGS).
Here is my question. Who was Catholic on a British Protestant ship carrying slaves?
Maybe there is a Spanish wreck (just my guess) near the Dove, or maybe even under it. The bar of St. Augustine has taken down hundreds of ships, right?
Last edited by elle; May 24, 2012 at 11:24 PM.
May 25, 2012, 02:09 AM
May 25, 2012, 07:17 AM
Great Balls O Fire!! I knew I posted these in the right place. Chagy NAILED it! Many thanks! The guy who found these is out of town this week and may not see this post for a few days, but he has been trying to get this solved for many months and will be absolutlely thrilled. No question about the design.
Now the really big questions are : how did these get where they were found, were they original property of a slave on the Dove, were they stolen from a slave, did the owner escape the wreck?
May 25, 2012, 09:21 AM
I still don't understand exactly what they are.
EDIT: Thanks to Chagy, I looked up Elegua and found that they are essentially for good luck. They are used in a variety of ways - as pendants (Terry's photos above) and stone doorstops (Chagy's photos) so that all who enter a house will have opportunity. No doubt they must be related to the Dove. Since it sank, anyone on the vessel could have drifted, drowned or simply lost them while trying to swim away.
Last edited by Darren in NC; May 25, 2012 at 09:27 AM.
May 25, 2012, 09:52 AM
Turns out that this is a good luck symbol, and widely used totem in the modern-day newage/fairydust community. May have been left there by a sympathetic mourner. Can't tell without some other supporting stuff from the immediate area. Will see.
May 25, 2012, 10:41 AM
Good point on modern use, Terry. I'm skeptical about a new-age practitioner even knowing about the Dove, much less tossing over silver charms. The ones you posted look much older than the modern versions I've seen. My bet would be that they are contemporary of the wreck. As you stated, more supporting evidence will tell the tale.
May 25, 2012, 11:42 AM
May 25, 2012, 01:39 PM
da book worm--researcher
just got off the phone with the finder * - I told him what these were long ago -- if one looks up santeria god image --you will find a matching "shell face" image -- what we call -- santeria--- is a blended mixture of the native Yoruba faith --(Regla de Ocha - - in english -- The Rule of the Orisha-) and catholic faith --- there are 4 warroir gods in the traditional Youbra faith --with Eshu "aka" the trickster" being thought of the most powerful one --* the cowrie shells are used to make his face -- its a ESHU / ELEGUA charm of either the original AFRICAN YOUBRA FAITH OR LATER SANTERIA FAITH
I told the finder a long time ago what they were but without a "dead nuts" photograpthic match he had "issues' believing me , so he drug them around for several archie type "experts" to look at --all who had no clue as to what they were -- thankfully chagy has now provided the matching "images" to prove 100% exactly what they are -- which is exactly what I told him they were all along . -- sometimes its not easy to get folks to believe your ID is accurite
Last edited by ivan salis; May 25, 2012 at 02:08 PM.
May 25, 2012, 01:45 PM
I'll let you know what the finder says... he has recovered some pretty spectacular stuff in the last year or so. It would be very significant, to me at least, if these were genuinely a product of the Dove and not simply a beach goer's forgotten jewelry, left carelessly on a beach towel.
May 25, 2012, 02:06 PM
da book worm--researcher
slaves would not have silver jewelry ( silver was valuible)-- but the slave translator might * -- slave ships often had a slave translator who told slaves what to do while aboard ship in their native tongue * --the translator might have also helped in africa when "talking' with local tribal slave sellers about buying slaves --the translator was most likely a african * and thus believed in the youbra religion or santeria.
May 25, 2012, 02:24 PM
May 25, 2012, 06:58 PM
So much for bringing good fortune!
May 25, 2012, 07:08 PM
Since we talk about African slave charms, I post this here.
Sailors were always superstitious. This is why we find all sorts of charms and amulets on the shipwrecks.
The time of the buccaneers and pirates also coincides with the time of the slave ships.
Some pirates even specialized in capturing slave ships.
The slaves brought their own beliefs and superstitions. These, in time became the Voodoo, Santeria and Macumba that still go strong in our days.
When we find charms and amulets on pirate ships, we wonder if they belonged to the European pirates who were often former indenturees, we might just as well call that slavery too, or the former African slaves, now turned pirates, who made up more than half of the crew.
Below is the picture of a small brass container found on a pirate shipwreck.
What could be the origin of this container? There is another one about the same size but a bit different.
What might be the use of the container?
From the archaeologist point of view, we would look at the context to give some indication where to search for answers, but here we have a problem. There are 2 pirate shipwrecks close together.
The one pirate was specialized in capturing slave ships.
The other one came from the “South Sea”.
To me the engravings seem to look kind of African origin.
May 25, 2012, 08:01 PM
Terry, Chagy, Ivan, Laura, Everyone
Thank You !!! these two items', been a big Mystery.
I have written all over the East Coast, to the Whydah Project, UF, FSU, even to Kathy D. no one never seen anything like it !!
there where other items found, but these " Silver Amulet's ".. was a Mystery.. Ivan was right, why back.. I had 4 different research story's, and no photo's..
So far,' there's only two found!.. My friend has the other, His was found less then a mile away.. You never know what you are going to find!!!
Again,' Thank You all!!. if ya'll are up my way. Lunch is on me!! " I hope, ya'll like MRE's "
Last edited by Sapper23; May 25, 2012 at 08:18 PM.
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