Today's value of sunken treasures

[Bobadilla]

Hello everybody,

As usually, I would like to hear your opinions and ideas....
I am confused always when I am asked to give an estimate of value of some shipwreck. I know that there was almost always bigger or smaller contraband on board of especially Spanish galleons, so value taken only from official cargo manifest is just the base (passenhers' personal items and jewelry, navigation tools, bronze cannons, etc. should be also taken into the account I think) but my question is: does it exist a formula for the calculation of let's say value in the beginning of the 17th century into todays prices? For example, "..... a Spanish galleon went down with 200,000 in gold and silver...." What does it exactly mean today from money point of view?
Thanks for helping me to understand thus matter better.

Best regards,
Lobo

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[Mackaydon]

To me, it means nothing unless the 200k is broken down to how many pieces each of gold and silver are in the total--and then one needs to know if it's in coin or bullion. And in your example, is the 200k in pieces of undisclosed coins, dollars, pesos or what?
The value of money is based on its purchasing power; what will it buy. You may then research what an escudo or piece of eight back in the day could buy and relate that to how much the same item(s) would cost today. You'd then have the old coins 'value' in today's money.
Don.....

[Salvor6]

Bobadilla you need to look at the manifest to etimate the value. Also, have you heard of the "golden years", 1580 to 1620 when Spanish galleons carried more gold than silver? After that the ratio was 10% gold to 90% silver.

[aquanut]

Bobadilla you need to look at the manifest to etimate the value. Also, have you heard of the "golden years", 1580 to 1620 when Spanish galleons carried more gold than silver? After that the ratio was 10% silver to 90% gold.

Pete, Read what you wrote , have another drink. then read it again!

[aquanut]

I think one million pesos then, equates to about one billion in todays dollars.

[Hot zone]

It is a mute point as the treasure has not been recovered. The way inflation is going it will definitely be worth more if it is eventually found. With the government and everyone else trying to take it all away that assigned value is likely not to be realized by the finder though.

[ScubaFinder]

My brother, I think when you estimate the value of a shpwreck you are playing a guessing man's game. The value of a shipwreck's contents changes with the price of metals, with the economy, and we have no way of accurately making an "exchange rate" from 17th century pesos to any current monetary unit. Take a guess at the quantity of each type of artifact you expect to find based on the manifest and distribution of the site. Get a current average selling price for each type and do the math, adding bronze cannons and astrolabes at fair market value as you go. I don't think you will be too accurate, but at least that way you can be honest. It's a tough question to answer....and in my mind the answer is always "priceless".

I miss you my friend, maybe I will see you soon.

Jason

[O2ptima]

Always find it confusing -is the term Peso being used as a weight or as a value?

[Shawmen]

Always find it confusing -is the term Peso being used as a weight or as a value?

Short answer, as in Spanish Galleon wrecks, it's weight...Peso de Ocho, or Pieza de a ocho, (hence, piece of eight, depending on time period of translation) is 28.75 grams of Silver.

Santini~

[Vox veritas]

A "Peso" was a unit of account for 8 reales. It was used as unit of account and could correspond for a total of treasure carried. For example, one million pesos could be 27.8 metric tons of silver.

[Vox veritas]

I published, in Spanish, a scientific article which would be publicizing the underwater heritage of Spain in gold and silver. About 700 metric tons of gold and 22,000 tonnes of silver (between 1520 and 1822).
This may give us an idea of what we are talking about. My calculations have been very cautious making known numbers.

ESCAFANDRA Electronica, Rervista de Buceo y de Mar

ESCAFANDRA Electronica, Rervista de Buceo y de Mar

ESCAFANDRA Electronica, Rervista de Buceo y de Mar

ESCAFANDRA Electronica, Rervista de Buceo y de Mar

[O2ptima]

tks- so if a wrecks' manifest says ie one peso- say early 16th century- and it's all gold then am i correct to look at it this way 1 peso (28.75 gms)/31.1 (troy oz gold) = .9244 oz gold say x 1500 is worth on gold value alone ~ $1,38.66 ?

[Hot zone]

[cuzcosquirrel]

Dunno how this helps much.

When talking about the value of a cargo, rough estimate figures in pesos like "200,000 pesos anually" are in silver pesos. They are equal to about a piece of eight. They are not used as a weight device, never seen them used as a weight device when assigned in this manner.


Other useful monetary equivalences I have seen the Spanish use are marks and florins, such as "5000 marks for the construction and outfitting of the galleon." These are Hapsburgh Empire gold units.


You run into the occasional ecu or pound, but they do not come up so much.


Spain was supposed to demonitze based on grains of copper, or marevedis coins. You will see some odd stuff sometimes like "The leader of the expedition was paid 7000 grains per week." I think these were called velas or filas. Here is an abstract for an idea:

"The marc of gold was reckoned to contain 50 castellanos of 8 tomines, making 4800 grains, whereby the grain was reduced 1/25."

"The monetary unit of Castile was the maravedí, anciently a gold coin of value but, in the fifteenth century, diminished to a fraction of its former estimation. A declaration of Ferdinand and Isabella in 1503 says that formerly the silver real was equal to 3 maravedís, but now it is worth 34.<sup>"

They would often say that people were paid in marevedis units, but that they were actually paid in vellon (spanish reals) or tepuzque silver (colonial reals.)</sup>

A lot of people say, "These ships carried 200,000 pesos anually, therefore there is a trove of gold bars and silver coins just waiting to be hauled up."


This is the usual slant. When in actuality the cargo was worth that, perhaps 150% or 200% of that. But then 70% of the cargo value was silk, hardwood furniture, spices and ceramics. So it is pretty much gone. See where I am going with this.


The most valuable wrecks seem to be the ones indicated in correspondence or writing that they were "very rich." If a manifest has been kept, or there is other more descriptive correspondence about what personal losses were incurred, that might help out.

[Bobadilla]

Thanks to everybody for your valuable opinions and ideas. I realized that this matter is really far to be simple and that it is very hard to determinate even approximate value of any old shipwreck.

Jason, I miss you as well, bro, and I hope that we will meet here in DR very soon!

Best regards to all,
Lobo

[blackbeard1717]

Well to be honest with all of you given the story of the black swan and Odyssey the value of the wreck is nothing because if you find it you should not talk or bring attention to yourself.

[Hot zone]

Well to be honest with all of you given the story of the black swan and Odyssey the value of the wreck is nothing because if you find it you should not talk or bring attention to yourself.

Now that is what i alluded to in my first post but now spoken like a pirate, Blackbeard!

[bronzecannons]

Bobadilla, try this web site; Measuring Worth - Relative Value of the US Dollar.

Put in the Initial YEAR. Put in the Initial AMOUNT. Put in the Desired YEAR. Not exact but may help somewhat.

TW

[O2ptima]

Am i wrong to think Peso = piece of eight silver = which weight 27.5 ish ounces? so in todays dollars 27.5/31.1 = .88432 troy x ~30= ~$26.53?

[FISHEYE]

You could always go by what the mel fisher museum gets for their artifacts.Some prices may be inflated but they do sell at those prices.It seems when the melt price of gold goes up so does the prices of gold artifacts.