NEEDED: 18th Century Wood Sample with Tar Pitch / Cresote for Scientific Testing

[Land-Sea]

Hello All; In the last 5 years the group I have been working with has has developed a trace-level, point-and-shoot instrument for near-instantaneous "triage" of soluble metal ion detection in the field. The instrument is capable of detecting a number of metallic ions at ppm to ppb levels in seconds-without taking physical samples, drilling and managing core samples, or employing other methods that can be destructive or disruptive to vulnerable and sensitive eco-systems. There are no consumables or reagent requirements.

Much of our project in the first few years was aimed at pollution in the USA and other countries. Early 2011 I had the bright idea to start aiming towards using the instrument for finding signatures of shipwrecks. I went to Margaret Wellers Treasure Salvage Seminar along with 2 associates and came away with a wealth of knowledge and some interesting ideas.

What I am hoping to find on this forum is a bit of help in acquiring a sample of wood from an 18th century or earlier shipwreck that has signs of or posibilites of tar pitch, cresote, oakum, or other preservatives which may have been used along with lead sheathing. Obviously we are looking for wood used in the outer planking of the ship usually below the water line.

What I would need is a small sample 2 cubic centimeters or thereabouts. That will provide us with enough material to do a number of tests. If you can provide with it a aproximate location, say FL, TX, CA, NC etc and your opinion on aproximate age it will help in labeling.

That's it. Maybe someone knows a conservator at one of the FL museums, or a diver that has brought a plank up or ? I am not looking for anything or anyone doing anything illegal just looking to fill a scientific need that we know will produces spectacular results.

If you can help please answer on this forum, or private message me, or ?? I am not opposed to muliple samples from various sources. I will arrange with you for mailing and any other requirements you might have.

Thanks,

Jake

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[AUVnav]

n the last 5 years the group I have been working with has has developed a trace-level, point-and-shoot instrument for near-instantaneous "triage" of soluble metal ion detection in the field. The instrument is capable of detecting a number of metallic ions at ppm to ppb levels in seconds-without taking physical samples, drilling and managing core samples, or employing other methods that can be destructive or disruptive to vulnerable and sensitive eco-systems. There are no consumables or reagent requirements.

You mean a pXRF?

Perhaps you should explain yourself, as many of us here on this site actually use a pXRF everyday.....

If you are attempting to build some sort of database with XRF data, then just say so, but that database would have to be available in the public domain.

For me, it would appear that you are gathering data for potential cleanup sites....

Your post is VERY suspect.

[allen_idaho]

He explains what he is trying to do in the similar thread he made last year:

Looking for info on 18th century ships / was hull treated with cresote or ??

Basically a device to detect trace chemicals in water.

[Land-Sea]

Thanks Allen, I didn't think my post was "Very Suspect" even if he was not aware of my previous posts to learn more. I had to google PXRF because although I am on a team doing a scientific project I am not a scientist and had no idea what PXRF was. Now I know it has to do with X-ray and our instrument has nothing to do with x-ray. Allen is right this device "sniffs" metal and organic ions in the water columns. It is special due to its abilty to read data in real time, and down to ppm, ppb. I tried some modern pitch and the instrument lit up off the charts, so we want to test some 300 year old wood with tar for comparisons. I only need a 1 inch square piece to do the testing. One person from this forum has already (PM) offered an inner plank cube as a baseline sample. If our findings work out we certainly will post some basic information. The instrument is still under developement and will be at least a year before released.

I see that over 100 people have looked at this post. Thanks for checking it out. I hope someone that has scrounged a piece of wood, or an existing lab would have such a sample to share. I would go so far as to offer a small pay number if needed. Shipping costs would be covered by me. Thanks, Jake

[AUVnav]

Why would you think its okay to mail Haz Waste?

[VOC]

AUVnav you plonker

You made yourself look a dick two post ago by going on about something that you knew nothing about (as you have not been on here long enough) and now you are going on about posting HAZ waste.

And what is so hazardous about a small treated wood sample when you can order both creosote and tar by mail order to be sent in the post.

[Oceanscience]

Hi Jake,

could this instrument be used to detect and quantify the amount of lead and mercury in algae and other fish food?

Let's consider there is a shipwreck that is breaking up of old age, on the ocean floor. The ship contains hundreds of tons of lead and a few tons of mercury, besides thousands of tons of copper, tin and other metals.

What kind of pollution does it cause to the environment? Are the fish living in it contaminated with lead or mercury?

Could this be a reason to salvage the cargo to reduce the poisoning of the fish and the people who eat the fish?

Ocean

[Land-Sea]

Hi Ocean, the instrument can detect ions in water streams, plumes that are organic or metal. Mostly just a matter of building a data base. We are currently working on the algae blooms in the Great Lakes, pollutants in local water sources. We are also testing rock and ore samples as it can also work in mining. It can detect lead and mercury to the ppm / ppb in a "sniffing" fashion that can lead us (like a bloodhound) to its source. There are many ships on the left coast that have sank with massive amounts of copper for sure, like the Pac Baroness. I am sure that Noaa and others have their eye on it, and everyone knows its there. What's being done? Not sure. With states in financial trouble no one wants to cough up the money for futher research. For example the algea blooms in the Great Lakes, everyone agrees it is a problem for heath, tourism etc... but no one has the money to go further. We could given the opportunity pinpoint a date for critial algae blooms to unfold and therefore be able to provide the states with time to take the appropriate action. A similar instrument was developed years ago to detect narcotic fields in Columbia via the instrument and a helicopter. Israel also used a similar product to sniff out chemicals for bombs at their airports. They were both air based instruments. We have taken it to the point where it will work on land and sea. I am really not qualified to discuss the workings or the instrument itself. As I related earlier I am doing the search for a tiny piece of wood for the data base in order to add more signatures for when we go looking for a wreck. It can detect silver, copper, lead, etc... then adding other things like tar pitch we hope to develope signtures that are unmistakable in the field.

I hope that helps a little to understand.

Jake

[allen_idaho]

Thing about the Pac Baroness is that the copper is not exactly in an easily recoverable form. See, they were carrying 21,000 tons of copper concentrate which is a fine powder extracted from ore. When the Baroness had her #4 and #5 cargo holds ripped open, some of that powder was able to mix with sea water and wash away. The concentrate composition was 30% copper, 30% iron and 40% other material.

Being a powdered substance, it would be difficult if not impossible to recover. And there is no telling how much would actually remain. Aside from that, it's just a matter of getting down to the wreck. She currently lies in 1410 - 1460 feet of water at location 34° 21.00' N, 120° 45.00' W (approximately).

Keep in mind, however, that a recovery attempt could spread even more copper concentrate into the environment and do serious damage to the nearby Channel Islands Marine Sanctuary.

Overall, most likely not worth the time, money and effort. I wouldn't waste time on it, personally.

[FISHEYE]

Land-sea,

I have a part of a rudder post that has copper nails in it and a small piece of copper sheeting on it.The wood is dried out as it was found on the beach up near the dunes that washed away after hurricane Jeanne at the cape Canaveral sea shore in florida.I asked a ranger if i could collect driftwood and he said take all you want.This piece i carried several miles down the beach and it wasn't fun.There were older much larger ships beams exposed,some even had bronze spikes in them.those would have taken a large crane and some sort of flatbed truck to haul off the beach.All have been reburied again with the sand coming back.This wood has some black spots on it that seem to be the remains of tar.Email me if you want a small piece of it.

[Land-Sea]

HI All,
I received two offers for wood samples which I accepted through private email through the site but have not heard back. Are you two still out there and willing to send the sample. I don't know if you recieved my PM or not.

Please let me know,
Jake

[Zodiacdiverdave]

HI All,
I received two offers for wood samples which I accepted through private email through the site but have not heard back. Are you two still out there and willing to send the sample. I don't know if you recieved my PM or not.

Please let me know,
Jake

Sorry Mate I was on a 1750s wreck the other day and meant to scoop you a sample but got too involved with what I was doing. One question I have though, do you just require a wood sample or do you need a sample with visible tar or pitch on it.?
ZDD

[Land-Sea]

Hey ZZD no need for apologies, Im happy you were even thinking about it! A piece without tar would be used as a baseline study. A piece with tar will set off larger bells and whistles, and help with getting that signature for future wreck sites. If you can provide either one it would be benificial to the study. I only need a 2cm cubic piece (aprox 1 inch square) which will provide multiple tests. Thanks. I am happy to compensate for shipping and any expenses. Let me know.

Thanks so much!
Jake

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Hey ZZD no need for apologies, Im happy you were even thinking about it! A piece without tar would be used as a baseline study. A piece with tar will set off larger bells and whistles, and help with getting that signature for future wreck sites. If you can provide either one it would be benificial to the study. I only need a 2cm cubic piece (aprox 1 inch square) which will provide multiple tests. Thanks. I am happy to compensate for shipping and any expenses. Let me know.

Thanks so much!
Jake

Jake could you use just the pitch, I can supply some from a 18th century cannon barrel plug I have? The pitch is exposed and easily removed.
I can send you some along with the wood sample once I retrieve it.
ZDD

[Land-Sea]

ZZD That would be fantastic and most likely end my search. I really apreciate it. Let me know if you need anymore information. I am so happy right now my feet are dancin'.

Jake

[Zodiacdiverdave]

ZZD That would be fantastic and most likely end my search. I really apreciate it. Let me know if you need anymore information. I am so happy right now my feet are dancin'.

Jake

No worries, I should have a good wood sample for you by next week, I will PM you when they are ready to ship.
ZDD

[Zodiacdiverdave]

I have your wood samples now, also some pitch samples and some very old bunker sea samples (at least that's what I thing it is.) to ship. PM me with the address for shipping.
ZDD

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Samples sent, I hope they work for you.
ZDD

[Land-Sea]

Well friends, Zodiacdiverdave came through in a big way. Some nice wood samples and some tar / creasote samples as well. These will be perfect for our research. I really appreciate all who participated in the discussion but most of all Dave who went out of his way to do a fellow treasurenet follower a favor which may in the end provide another thing to scan for when looking for treasure wrecks. It may take a month or so for results.

Thanks,
Jake