Looking for Wisdom from the Wise!

[theGOLD]

Hi Everyone, I am about as "newb" as a newbie could possibly be. I live here in Florida, and my family lives in the Bahamas. I have been reading through the posts on this site, and I must say that its all so interesting. I caught the bug a few years ago. My father would drag me around looking for objects, and we would inspect them. Difficult salvage law in the Bahamas when your dealing with a moratorium on the issue, but its fun to look anyways, I just always put things back and note where I've found them.
I am really excited to begin some good old fashioned fat-chewing with all of you experts. I deeply respect all of your wisdom and experience, and if I can help with info sources, examples, or photos for entertainment, I certainly will try!!

Now that introductions have been properly issued, I wanted to pose a question about the "El Capitan" that went down off the NW end of New Providence Island. Does anyone have information on it?? Dates, what she was carrying, where was she coming from and on route to? Were there survivors or any information on the incident of wreckage itself?

Also, does anyone know of any British HMS ships of sail from circa 1824 that went down in the general vicinity between Spanish wells and Paradise Island??

Cornelius, Diving Doc, and good lord, pretty much everyone on here seem to have an inexhaustible wealth of experience and knowledge. Thanks very much your help, and I look forward to learning from all of you!!

Thanks

-theGOLD

 

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[Monty]

I'd love to help you, but when it comes to shipwrecks and the sea I'm not wise......I'm otherwise! Welcome to the fold. Monty

 

[theGOLD]

Ha ha, thanks though!

 

[mad4wrecks]

The El Capitan is not the name of the ship of course, but probably refers to it being the capitana or flagship of the fleet. However, if one cannot identify the ship by name, I am not sure how it was determined it was the capitana!

Still searching my files to see if I have anything in that location

 

[theGOLD]

Wow, I cant believe I didnt catch that. VERY good point. I have heard from a few people in Nassau and from some random readings that a galleon went down off the NW point of New Providence. The only name I have ever seen is El Capitan, so Im not sure. That point is an interesting area, lots of sharks though. Every time I go spearing there I have to deal with them. There are a couple of nasty reefs that jut out to the north west that would be interesting to hit up with a mag.

Its also so close to the wall, I wonder if this supposed wreck could have drifted off the wall and down into the deep. I think I remember Cornelius saying something about it in a much earlier post though, maybe he can clear things up for us.

Thanks!

-theGOLD

 

[ScubaDude]

the GOLD,
Welcome to TNet. There are alot of wrecks around New Providence. I know some stuff has been found on the NE end of the island. I'll have to dig through my stuff to see if I've got anything on the wreck you mentioned.

One piece of wisdom I can give you is don't get caught dragging your new mag around in the Bahamas, or playing with the Pulse 8 for that matter. I assume you know they don't allow spearfishing either (Hawaiian sling=Yes / speargun=No)?

NC Brad

 

[theGOLD]

Ooooh yeah, I know.... My policy is look but dont touch and look CAREFULLY at that. In the Bahamas spearguns are considered "silent weapons" by the law and are outlawed, blowdarts guns as well. I like the Hawaiian sling better anyways. There's more sport in it I find, especially when your free diving.

Yeah I would really like to locate something worth while and then take the project to the government. My family has some good friends and connections in the government that would help. Just need to find the right project thats all. Yeah, if you find anything on those two wrecks I mentioned though let me know.

Thanks a lot

-theGOLD

 

[ScubaDude]

Your "El Capitan" was a galleon that sunk in 1717 NW of New Providence with $500,000 worth of unspecified something most likely silver. That was the actual name that the source I have shows for it. Not much treasure for a Capitan though. I'm still working on the other one. Do you have any additional info on it or can you tell me how you derived what you have?

Regards,
Brad

 

[theGOLD]

No details on survivors or details of the wrecking for El Capitan is there? It would be interesting to figure on whether its worth it to look around the NW point for it or whether it went over the edge of the wall. If its gone over the edge then thats out of my reach. Im not so partial to free-diving or 3rd lungin it down to 3000 ft....

On the English ship, I know a guy from Eluethra that found a scatter pattern of pig iron with the british naval arrow, some iron ribs or strappings, copper and iron nails, apparently some guns and swords that he said were British naval in make and all had GR (Gorgias Rex) and the only date he saw was on a piece of chain four links long that had H.S. and 1824 stamped into it. He wouldnt tell me exactly where he found it but Im guessing its between Nassau and Spanish wells.

That help at all??

 

[ScubaDude]

Nothing else on the first one.

Yes to the second one, I'll keep digging.....nothing yet.

 

[Cablava]

Not yours but a few that were wrecks thereabouts.

Curtesy of Capt. Dan Berg's Wreck Valley Collection




ABACOS ISLANDS (Bahamas)

The Abacos islands are located in the northeast section of the Bahamas
approximately 170 miles from Miami, Florida. The two largest islands are
Great Abaco and Little Abaco.

The best diving off Abaco is between its eastern shores and cays that are
protected from the Atlantic Ocean by barrier reefs. Green Turtle Cay, Treasure
Cay and Man of War Cay all offer excellent diving. Diving Abaco centers
around a reef that is one of the longest in the world, measuring about 150
miles.
For more information about the Bahamas visit the Bahamas Board of Tourism’s official website –
www.bahamas.com


U.S.S Adirondack class warship with crew manning the yards. Courtesy U.S. Naval Historical Foundation


U.,S.,S. ADIRONDACK
The U.S. S. Adirondack was an Ossipee class wooden screw sloop built in
1861 at the New York Navy Yard. She was launched on February 22, 1862,
and commissioned in June of the same year. This union gun boat was 207
feet long, had a 38 foot beam, weighed 1,240 gross tons, and was powered
by both sail and steam. The Adironduck was part of the South Atlantic
Blockading Squadron. On August 23, 1862, while on a voyage from Port
Royal to Nassau, she ran aground on Little Bahama Bank. Her crew was
rescued by the vessel Canadaigua, but all salvage attempts of the ship
failed. The Adirondack broke up in the surf and sunk.

The scattered remains of this warship rest in l0 to 30 feet of water. Divers
can still see two of her I I inch bore cannons that are about twelve feet
long and weigh about 10,000 pounds each. Twelve smaller cannons can
also be sighted while exploring the wreckage.


BARGE
The Borge wreck is the remains of a World War II landing craft. She rests
in a small channel off Fiddle Key, in 40 feet of water and is badly
deteriorated. The wreck has broken apart and scattered over a large area
but remains to be an absolutely fantastic site for macro photography.


BONITA
The Bonita, also known as Bonvita, was once utilized by the British to
evacuate soldiers from Dunkirk and was later used as a houseboat. Brendal,
the owner of Brendal's Dive shop, purchased the vessel in order to sink her
as a dive site and fish haven. She now rests in 60 feet of water and is used
as a feeding station for groupers.


DEMIRA
Originally built in the Bahamas, the Demira was a 4l l foot [ong, steel
hulled sailing freighter. She was sunk by damage incurred from a hurricane
in 1928.

The Denlira has become a nice shallow water dive. Sitting in only 30 feet
of water, she allows divers plenty of bottom time to fully explore her
wreckage.


Bow of the USS San Jacinto. Drawing courtesy U.S. Naval Historical center.


S.,S. SAN JACINTO
This warship is yet another civil war gunboat. The U.S.S. San Jacinto was
one of the earliest American built steam vessels. In fact, she was built as
an experimental ship to test the technology of new propulsion concepts.
She was laid down by the New York Navy Yard in August of 1847 and
launched on April 16, 1850. A screw frigate, the Jacinto was 234 feet long,
and had a 38 foot beam. During her life on the sea she was plagued by
unreliable machinery which was always in need of repair. naval support to northern troops, capturing the blockade runners Lizzie Davis, Fox, Edward, Roebuck and Lealtad; diplomatic missions overseas; and involvement in China's Second Opium War, the San Jacinto met her
doom by running aground on New Year's Day, 1865. At the time of her
demise, she was engaged in blockade duty for the U.S. Navy. Her guns and
some of her provisions were recovered, but all efforts to salvage the vessel
were unsuccessful.


Courtesy Steamship Historical Society Collection, University of Baltimore Library.

This wreck sits on a slope with a maximum depth of 40 feet. Her structure
is scattered due to the constant pounding of the sea which leaves us no
clue as to the shape she once held. On our visit we encountered a large
friendly green moray eel (Gymnothorax Funebris). To say the least, he was
eager for a free handout, and became a very willing model.


SAN JUAN EVANGELISTA
The Spanish Galleon San Juon Evangelista was part of the Armada de
Barlovento of Spain.

In the year 1714, she was en route from Veracruz to Puerto Rico, transporting
a military payroll of 300,000 pesos, when a violent storm forced her aground.
The ship was left resting high and dry on a reef which made for easy salvage
operations. Her treasure and her cannons were recovered.

H.M.S. MERMAID
The H.M.S. Mermaid, an English warship under the command of Captain
James Hackman, set sail from Charleston, South Carolina to New Providence
on December I , 1759. On the morning of December 4th, the ship was blown
into the breakers by gail force winds blowing from the northeast which forced
her to anchor. The Mermaid had tried to anchor three times, but on each
attempt the force of the storm snapped her line, driving her closer to a shallow
reef. At 8:00 AM Captain Hackman, in an attempt to lighten his vessel with
the hopes of allowing her to pass over the reef, ordered her guns to be cast
overboard. This attempt only prolonged the inevitable fate. The Mermaid finally
ran aground a half mile from shore. For a month the vessel's hull
stood up to the ocean's pounding, allowing time for all of her stores to be
salvaged. On January 6, 17ffi, the Mermaid finally collapsed and sunk beneath
the waves.


H.M.S. Mermaid in her present condition on the ocean floor. Courtesy Carl Fismer, Spanish Main Treasure Company.


The location of this site remained unknown until 1987 when the Spanish
Main Treasure Company with the use of a proton magnetometer was able
to find her resting spot. According to Carl Fismer, a noted treasure hunter,
the site was found after locating one of her anchors in about 40 feet of
water. This clue lead the team to a second anchor, a third, and then a
fourth. Each anchor brought the treasure hunters closer to the H.M.S.
Mermaid. They found her cannons in 30 feet of water, and finally the
remains of her hull were found in only ten feet.


Cannon from the H.M.S. Mermaid.
Photo courtesy Carl Fismer, Spanish
Main Treasure Company.

The Spanish Main Treasure Company preserved the historical integrity of
the site. Duke Long, the company's cartographer, drew up detailed drawings
of the wreckage. Although this site was never thought to contain treasure,
the group did recover some very interesting artifacts including two complete cooking hearths, which are the first intact ones ever to be salvaged.


Diver surveying the Mermaid wreck. Photo courtesy Carl Fismer.


Today, the wreck can be found off Mermaid Beach and explored by sport
divers and snorkelers. Walkers Cay Diving runs trips to the wreck regularly,
and who knows what a lucky diver might find.


TRAIN WRECK

Barbara Doerenbach explores the Train Wreck near Abaco. Photo bv
Stephen Frink.

The Train Wreck is not one, but two steam locomotive wrecks. We have
not found any historical information, but they were most likely being
transported on a barge when struck by some bad weather.
This site is sitting in only ten feet of water, and is excellent for snorkeling.
The wreckage is scattered, so don't expect to see two complete trains sitting
on the bottom. While exploring the wreckage, divers are able to see the
locomotive's wheels, ballast pile, boilers, and engines.
This area is covered with fire coral, so be careful not to touch anything
unless you're sure of what it is. Wearing gloves for protection is also a
good idea.

 

[theGOLD]

Really interesting stuff. Ive heard of the train wreck actually, never been but Ill bet it would be fun to dive it. Thanks for that!

The thing that interests me about this English ship is that this guy apparently hasnt found any cannon or anything large/expensive for the time. I think maybe that he has found the HMS Rose?? The ship that Rose Island is named after. I believe she went down around the same time as the other dates+- some years. I couldnt find a ton about it, but I think she was completely salvaged and all survived. Anyone have any better records on her?? That would make sense if he is basically finding ballast and small objects that perhaps just washed off the decks? What do you think?

-theGOLD

 

[Chagy]

Hello and welcome to the forum,

"El Capitan" is the correct name of your wreck....... Do not get confused with "Capitana" (which means Flag Ship)........"El Capitan" (means The Captain)


All the best,

Chagy........

 

[mad4wrecks]

I had the same information as Brad, "galleon wrecked in 1717 NW of New Providence with $500,000 worth of specie" (silver).

If it was a Spanish galleon, again, I am thinking that El Capitan is the local, contemporary reference to the capitana. I have seen the Nuestra Senora de la Regla, capitana of the 1715 fleet, referred to as El Capitan in several books, including the Underwater Diving Guide to Florida by Ned Deloach.

 

[theGOLD]

Heres a quick question, when they say in the record "$500,000" worth of specie, or some other cargo do they mean 500,000 current value or value at the time of the wreck. Or is it simply a matter of what sources you use??

Thanks for all the dialogue and welcomes guys!

-theGOLD

 

[theGOLD]

Hmmmm... YES I would have to say absolutely yes. 10.5 million sounds like pretty good payment in return for being able to dive all day, and learn about history at the same time...

Thanks Cornelius, and did you happen to know anything more about the El Capitan?? I thought I had seen a posting by you in an earlier thread about her?

Thanks again for the info, I really do feel pretty honored to be chatting with you guys because your all so knowledgable about it.

Thanks,

-theGOLD

 

[theGOLD]

Here's a question, with a typical ship the size of "El Capitan" what size anchor would she be carrying in terms or length and width??

-theGOLD

 

[Salvor6]

Hello Cornelius. I see your wreck is worth 8.5 million. Now I know why no one will take your offer. What does the Indonesian govt. take? Fifty percent? Now deduct your 10% and the total profit will be only $3.4 mil. That's hardly worth it to work half way around the world. Most large treasure hunting companys are after wrecks worth hundreds of millions if not BILLIONS!

 

[stevemc]

I do know of an English ship wreck- West of Paradise Island. My mom found it in 1968, while she was snorkeling with my dad. My dad and I went back in July 1969 and recovered bronze nails-for lead sheathing, spikes which were thick notched copper, belt buckles, other things-with the English broadhead on everything bronze, copper or iron. There were iron pigs for ballast, and it had lead sheathing, so it must have been early 1815-1850 English, as after that they used copper sheathing and before they used rock for ballast. Where are you parents living? Maybe we can go check out the one I have dove on. Lots of interresting artifacts. I have wanted to use a metal detector on it. I still have some of the nails and other items. There are some of the nails in the McClarty Treasure Museum. The state thought they were from a certain Florida wreck and even named it! But they wanted part of the division and they took that part without asking where they were from. I quess they figured they were with all the other treasure and stuff and belonged with it. I know the Bahamas very well, Nassau, Eleuthera, Grand Bahamas and the Abacos very, very well. PM me, Steve.

 

[Salvor6]

Cornelius, I was seriously thinking about your project and I worked up a budget but it didn't look good enough for me factoring in the salvage vessel and divers, salaries, food, lodging, fuel, air fares, etc, etc. Maybe I am missing something. But it would still require a highly experienced company to tackle such a project sucessfully.