Lord Archibald Hamilton on 1715 fleet salvage...in Florida AND the Bahamas ?

[Booty Salvage]

Why was he banned? He posted good threads, and some original research

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A Handbook of Civil War Bullets and Cartridges - Grab it through Amazon!

[Smithbrown]

There is a discussion of the lost thread here: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/shipwrecks/278125-wind-wind.html

 

[LM]

Seriously though, why in the hell is Cornelius banned?

Sure, from time to time he could be a bit ornery- god knows from time we ALL can be a bit ornery- but he was an experienced do'er in the underwater TH world and a real resource to this site.

Does anyone know if the ban took place when Marc Austin still owned the site or did it occur after Forum Founrdy bought the place?

 

[aquanut]

It was a feud between Austin and Cornelius. Austin owned the site...
Cornelius is no longer banned as far as I know.

 

[LM]

I hope he's unbanned.
When a site changes ownership, its not like they go back and unban everyone on the ban list, so this probably requires inquiry.
Cornelius can make his own decision whether he wants to post here or not, but he should NOT be banned from posting.

Marc would get hot to sell this place on random occasions then he'd either change his mind and back out or quote some asinine price. One time I inquired, he quoted a totally unrealistic upper mid five figure price (unrealistic relative to the monetization models available at that time).

I have no idea what Forum Foundry paid but I'd bet the farm it was a lot less than the asbsurd quotes I got from him. I have a hunch it was a price that, if Marc had just put it up for sale here and publicly named a reasonable price, myself or another tnet member would've bought it which would've probably been the best thing. No complaints about Forum Foundry, they haven't done anything wrong with running it so far but there are a few eccentric situations like this that need remedying (in addition to a changing of the guard in moderatorland) that only members would be apt to recognize.

Anyway, forgive the ranting and rambling. It annoys the hell out of me that I missed out on this place because the counterparty had dogshit for business sense and somebody else won solely for being in the right place at the right time.

I'll go ahead and take the initiative to inquire about Cornelius with the admins. Hopefully they're receptive to reason.

 

[Darren in NC]

LM, Corny isn't banned. He was banned prior by Marc Austin for threatening Marc with legal action against the forum, when Corny was clearly violating the forum rules. This happened years ago. Corny has since been back on and can post whenever he pleases.

 

[LM]

OK, then that's that.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Jolly Mon]

Another Governor gets into the act

Alexander Spotswood, Lt. Governor of Virgina, had some definite knowledge of the 1715 wrecks. Our friend Ivan has pointed this out. Clearly he knew some of the wrecks, at least, were in Florida. It is also clear he believed there were others in the Bahamas:


The Virginia Magazine of History and Biography, Vol 3

There may be some smoke here.

What happened to Spotswood's ship is interesting:

It leaves Virginia in the summer of 1716 and is blown nearly as far east as Bermuda on its way to the Bahamas.

A few days later, it is taken by a Spanish Man of War.

One would think Spotswood's ship would have been nearing the Bahamas by the time it was taken. Would not the Spanish salvage operations near Sebastian be going full tilt in the summer of 1716?

We know the Spanish were chronically short of vessels and materials...yet Spotswood's vessel must have been fairly near the Bahamas when it was taken.

What was the Spanish Man of War doing near the Bahamas? Routine patrol?

When millions of Pieces of Eight were lying in the shallow waters of Florida?

Maybe the Spanish Man of War was looking for the same thing as Spotswood.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

A majority of the treasure was recovered and in Havana by the end of October 1715.

Most of the pirate raiding and fishing the wrecks happened in the winter of 1716. Some other fishing the wrecks was near the end of the Spanish efforts and afterwards.

By early spring of 1716 "most of all" of the treasure was recovered so that by early summer, June, the Spanish had stopped salvage work claiming..."that the amounts they were recovering were not sufficient to compensate for the high costs of protecting the sites."

 

[Jolly Mon]

A majority of the treasure was recovered and in Havana by the end of October 1715.

Most of the pirate raiding and fishing the wrecks happened in the winter of 1716. Some other fishing the wrecks was near the end of the Spanish efforts and afterwards.

By early spring of 1716 "most of all" of the treasure was recovered so that by early summer, June, the Spanish had stopped salvage work claiming..."that the amounts they were recovering were not sufficient to compensate for the high costs of protecting the sites."

That is interesting. I have done very little research into the Spanish salvage operations, but I did not think they started full scale salvage until March 1716. I believe Henry Jennings raid was in July of 1716.

 

[grossmusic]

Jennings made more than one raid - his first (I think) was Christmas 1715. Sorry - off the top of my head - I could be off. And his raids were sanctioned by Hamilton (at least the first one was).

 

[mad4wrecks]

Jennings made more than one raid? I would love to see the archival documents that bear this out.

 

[grossmusic]

I recall that the first was "condemned" to Jamaica/Hamilton while the 2nd is what made him a king at Nassau. I believe the first was Christmas 1715, then in April 1716 he was fresh from his raid when he encountered Bellamy. I believe there are several English depositions dated August 1716 about the 2nd raid.

Salmon remained on site a very long time & took the brunt of Jennings' nastiness.

See the notes in Republic of Pirates. Very well cited.

 

[mad4wrecks]

I read the book. On Jennings second visit to the wrecks, his large fleet "fished" on them. There is no mention of a second raid of stored treasure.

I defer to Gene Lyons, whose research reports just one raid by Jennings.

If you do a search here on Treasurenet for Jennings you will find reference to Gene's research and the archival documents cited.

 

[Jolly Mon]

I would love to see some primary documentation of when the Spanish salvage operations actually ended. Some sites say July of 1716...some say it did not end until 1719.

For my part, I still find it strange that Spotswood's ship would have been taken by a Spanish Man of War on its approach to the Bahamas in June of 1716. Solozano's salvage operations continued until at least July of 1716...one might posit the Spanish were looking for "pirates" who had salvaged the fleet themselves, but it makes very little sense for them to have spread what resources they had as far as the Bahamas.

 

[grossmusic]

I read the book. On Jennings second visit to the wrecks, his large fleet "fished" on them. There is no mention of a second raid of stored treasure.

I defer... My answers are just from fallible middle-aged memory during this busy pre-Christmas season (my busy season as a musician).

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Jolly,
That 58 mile stretch wasn't that "spread out" when it comes to ships of sail. Those guys probably sailed way away from Florida with the recent destruction of the Flota not wanting to end up on the Florida reefs like their fellow countrymen.

Everybody probably sailed a little farther east for awhile after that event!

 

[Au_Dreamers]

One of the other "landings" at the camps ...
"Say I, Bartolome Carpenter, that I am 26 years old and that on the 2nd of February 1716"
"fleet of balandras followed and anchored here in the said Real and fired a cannon into the Real."
"In this time all the buildings were set on fire in both Reales."

The pirates flew Spanish flags but it wasn't fooling the Spanish at the camps. They had a few days of verbal exchanges and then the violence started because the Spanish moved their silver over to the other side of the lagoon...

hmmm maybe where the walmart treasure find was made?

 

[Dell Winders]

If I remember correctly, Walton was salvaging Treasure off Sanibel. Dell

 

[Jolly Mon]

Jolly,
That 58 mile stretch wasn't that "spread out" when it comes to ships of sail. Those guys probably sailed way away from Florida with the recent destruction of the Flota not wanting to end up on the Florida reefs like their fellow countrymen.

Everybody probably sailed a little farther east for awhile after that event!

We can agree to disagree on this point. The Spanish hugged the coast of Florida on the return to Europe because they had to. The Bahama side of the channel was even more treacherous than the Florida side for a ship or ships making a return to Europe. The Spanish were pilots until they reached at least sight of Cape Canaveral. They might begin to bear somewhat east after this, but not greatly. They needed to make sure of clearing Bermuda before they ventured a wholesale east or northeasterly bearing.

They had no way of determining longitude except by coastal observation or dead reckoning. The former requires a known and reliable coast to observe, the latter would become woefully inaccurate after even a brief time at sea.

That ships from the 1750 plate fleet wound up wrecking in the vicinity of Ocracoke Inet, NC is a good indication of just how closely to the mainland of North America the flotas stayed until they were sure of clearing the latitude of Bermuda. They would not risk a wholesale turn to the east until reaching 32 degrees north or thereabouts and picking up the trades.