Canadian Salvage Laws & Process

[starsplitter]

Canadian Salvage Laws & Process

Greetings Old Hands:

Can anyone refer me to a straightforward source regarding Canadian maritime salvage within territorial waters? What is the process? Who do you contact if you want to survey/salvage a wreck?

Thanks.

Mark
USA

 

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[Canadian Cossack]

Re: Canadian Salvage Laws & Process

To explore/salvage wrecks in Canada you will need to deal with both Federal and Provincial laws. Each Province may have different laws... just like US Sates...

Being from Nova Scotia, I can say that Nova Scotia has two primary laws that you would need to deal with 1) the Special Places Protection Act and the 2) Treasure Trove act.

Here is the link to Nova Scotia's Special Places protection act.

http://museum.gov.ns.ca/arch/ua_intro.htm

If your focus is in Nova Scotia's waters, let me know as I might be able to help a little... I've held a couple of different permits over the years and might be able to stear you in the right direction... but only for Nova Scotia.

I hope this helps you a little...

Cheers

 

[starsplitter]

Re: Canadian Salvage Laws & Process

Greetings:

Thank you for your reply. I want to learn more about Le Chameau. I understand it was partially salvaged in the '60's or '70's.

Mark
USA

 

[Canadian Cossack]

Re: Canadian Salvage Laws & Process

Yes, the Chameau has been worked by several groups, most extensively by Alex Storm in the 60/70's. he opened a museum in nearby Louisburg, Cape Breton based on this and other wrecks. he also recently published a book called "Seaweed and Gold" that describes his salvage efforts (I've not read it yet so I can't say much else).

The site is well know and has been visted by various groups and individual divers since then.

I'm sure there is still stuff to be found, but suspect the bulk has been recovered. It is in an exposed location and I suspect would be difficult to excavate in a manner that would allow anyone to say they got it all!

Good Luck, and keep us all posted!

 

[starsplitter]

Re: Canadian Salvage Laws & Process

Cossack:

I've done a little googling... there are some people up there who are not very fond of Sovereign International or Mr. McKinnon. Hmmm. I guess everybody has an opinion.

You are right (of course) about Le Chameau - it probably is not worth the effort. The accounts that I read made out like the bulk of the specie was still on the harbor bottom somewhere, or for all practical purposes, everywhere. What caught my eye about Le Chateau was the wreck site - a harbor, as in reasonably sheltered and shallow.

Several years ago the family visited the Maritime Provinces. It was wonderful, and we are discussing a second trip. We found Fortress Louisburg to be more rewarding than Colonial Williamsburg. Louisburg is a real jewel for Cape Breton.

I am curious as to whether there are upsides to searching in Canadian waters (as compared to the US). Thank you again.

Mark

 

[Canadian Cossack]

Re: Canadian Salvage Laws & Process

Hi Mark,

Yes the Soverign folks and Mr. McKinnon have drawn some negative attention. Here is link to a national press release that I that I think clearly gives my position about their efforts to salvage the wreck of the HMS Fantome:

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/national/story.html?id=1e2fb507-5704-45d5-a997-f4015c772e7c

I quote "Personally, I've never seen anything that tells me there's a billion dollars worth of treasure out there," said Greg Cochkanoff, a shipwreck diver who several trips to the Fantome's debris field.

He doubts that a big pay-day is at the bottom of the sea-bed, waiting to be discovered -- but at the same time -- defends the right of treasure hunters to explore."

I doubt that doing any kind of recovery in Nova Scotia's waters has any benifit over working in US waters. In fact, I suspect you would have an easier time in the US!

BUT... where there's a will, ther's a way! There are some in our government that have some small understanding that by working WITH private enterprise and other interested parties (treasure hunters) something benificail can be accomplished, which is better than doing nothing! I'd suggest that if you are serious, that you approach your project in a well thought out professional manner, be prepared to write lots of letters, be ready for some heavy criticism, and then... GO FOR IT!

The Chameau, is NOT in a sheltered harbour! It is spread between Chameau rock and the mainland is some of the world's most explosed and violent waters! this area is also compltely covered by sea ice and bergy bits in the winter months.

I suspect you might have the Chameau confused with the Prudaunt (sp?) or the Celebre, both lost inside Lousiburg Harbour. Even on these wrecks winter ice penetrats to the point that it can push cannons around! (Both these wrecks are definately out of bounds for salvage, in fact your not even allowed to dive in Louisburg Harbour unless under the direct supervision of a Parks Canada authorized guide)

Greg Cochkanoff (aka Canadian Cossack)

 

[starsplitter]

Re: Canadian Salvage Laws & Process

Greg:

Thanks for the reply. You were very informative. I was unaware of the other wrecks in Louisburg harbor. I suspected the government or the park would have an issue with salvage. If I understand you correctly, there is no such thing as getting a permit to dive or perform any salvage work there - cooperation or not with the park?

To satisfy my curiosity, I must find a chart of the harbor and google earth it. I hope the sat pics are sharp (some are some aren't). To tell the truth, I was wondering if a "sure thing" (so to speak) would interest investors. The Central America made quite an impression upon some moneyed folks down here - those with a penchant for adventure.

About a "sure thing" - of course there is no such animal, but, if I understand correctly, the debris field is in a reasonably well defined area (your big ass harbor). My little brain storm (or brain fart) was to try remote salvage - maybe some sort of crawler/ROV set up. I imagine a simple, straightforward design that can cope with the subsurface terrain, cut to the sub-bottom, identify targets, and salvage them with minimal/no damage to possible artifacts in the immediate area.

Relative to the technology, I wondered if a university engineering department would find designing and building a purpose built ROV of interest. An aside... my brother-in-law is a public relations/sales guru. The guy kind of humbles me, but he is a class act. He has political and university contacts. As a history teacher, I tend to think in terms of academic collaboration, and, I image that Ohio State might find the above an irresistable project - assuming the investors could be lined up. My experience with universities is, "Show me the money." Ahhh, ideas, ideas.


Thanks again. You are a veritable fount of knowledge!

Mark
Ohio

 

[Canadian Cossack]

Re: Canadian Salvage Laws & Process

Parks canada has done much work surveying everything in Louisburg Hbr. There are a handful of wrecks from the early 1700's including two "ships-of-the-line" (64 guns each I think), and they have all be mapped in detail. They use the wrecks as training sites for underwater archaeology course etc. There are signs posted around the harbour saying "No SCUBA Diving" etc. I've heard they have even placed little markers of some sort to be able to tell if someone has been fanning or digging on the wrecks (I'm not sure I belive this, but this is what I've been told). I've dove these wrecks several times (with a guide or with the Parks Canada underwater Archaeological team). Unless otherwise instructed I was asked to remain off bottom, above the wrecks and to not touch them (not even touch the cannons!)

These wrecks (and the entire harbour) are considered part of, and integral to, the Fortress Louisburg National Park complex. Their policy on these wreck sites is to NOT excavate them, but rather leave them as is....

I seriously doubt you would get any kind of permit to do anything except phtograph them (from a distance), regardless of how many universities you had on side... Keep in mind, to even touch them you'd have to get permission from Robert Grenier of Parks Canada and if you follow the news you will recognize his name as the primary author and chief promoter of the very restrictive UNESCO convention that is effectively trying to abolish any form of "treasure hunting" worldwide.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but rather just to let you know some of the realties of what your up against...

All that said, there are likely other sites in Nova Scotia and elswhere that would make worthy targets.... and you might actually get permission!

I have a few pet projects of my own, but I'm sorry to say that I can't recommend any targets that would seem to suit your desires. Most of my experince is with relatively shallow (less than 100') coastal wrecks. It seems that your plans might be better suited for deeper, offshore, targets that would lend themselves to remote operations... such as the Central America as you mentioned.

It shouldn't be too difficult to pick off Lousiburg Harbour using Google earth (I just had a look myself, the images are not very good for the area, but the Lousiburg Fortress is visible and was book-marked). I also think you will be able to find Chameau Rock. You will see that it is about as exposed as you will get for a rocky North Atlantic coasline! The wreck of the Tillbury is south of Louisburg, the wreck of the Feversham is North (off Scatarie Island) and the wreck of the Auguste is way up North close to Dingwll. All these wrecks have been worked under permit by professional treasure hunters and have yeilded coins, jewelry and other interesting stuff.

There is book called "Shipwreck Treasures of Nova Scotia" by Roger Marsters, published by Formac in 2005 that shows gold and silver from all these sites as well as the stories of the wrecks. (it even has some of my gold and silver in it :-)

Canadian Cossack

 

[starsplitter]

Re: Canadian Salvage Laws & Process

Greg:

Thanks for the response. Sounds as if treasure hunting in Canadian waters is tough business. Too bad about the UNESCO thing. That sucks. And, is pretty stupid. Partnerships are a better way to go - banning salavage is counterproductive.

Relative to the ROV: I was thinking along the lines of a more efficient/productive approach by leveraging technology. In my mind, the shallower the better. In such scenarios the technology need not push the envelope (as compared to deep water/super high pressures, etc.). Particularly when the terrain is relatively flat, sandy or muddy (as opposed to coral). On the other hand, if it was such a good idea, somebody would be doing it already.

If you don't mind, I'd like to stay in touch. Again, thanks, and may Davey Jones smile upon you.

Mark