Tide changes:

[Peg Leg]

YES Sir, there is plenty you can do with it.
First check for SPIKES or SILVER NAILS.
Then have the wood dated and classified as to what type wood it was. This will tell you were the ship was built.
With all this material covering the Beach you would think that the State of Florida would have been interested but since it was not Gold or Silver or Gem stones I guess not .
Peg Leg
If this happens again I will take ALL I can get.

 

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[ScubaFinder]

Cornelius, I have heard a few tales of people making silver spikes as a way to transport contraband silver. Pull and iron spike, replace it with a silver one, and when you get to Spain, recover the silver spike, an ingenious way to get around the taxes and smuggle some loot in for yourself.

Jason

 

[mad4wrecks]

I think I remember reading somewhere that a piece of eight could buy something like a months worth of groceries in the 17th century. So how many pieces of eight or ounces of silver could be poured into a spike mold- several I am guessing?

It may have been worth it to some poor and ingenuous sailor to attempt this smuggling trick.

 

[mad4wrecks]

Cornelius, I don't know the validity of the smuggling method myself, but I too have heard of the same process that Pegleg and Jason mention.

I thought sailors did it the way it is done today, jam some coins up your butt crack or hide them in cracks and crevices around the ship.

Marx tells a story about finding coins wedged into the caulking of his salvage boat after one of their expeditions.

 

[benny]

Jupiter Inlet has been renourished numerous times (had to dodge dredges many times there). The present channel was dredged in, I believe 1926, or so. The natural inlet, which closed often is about a half mile south about under the first condo to the south, found a French trade musket there a few years ago.
As the group working there knows, the sand is DEEP. most of what we found (not a lot, but a satisfying expedition) was at the 14-15' level seemingly suspended in some type of layer. If you dug below that you could dig to China and not find anything. LOTS of trash: beer cans, lead weights, etc.
Did the ship come in from the SE or the NW? Very strange site. Very little pottery or lead sheathing a random pattern to everything. Did the 1920's clamshell dredging cut through the wreck and dump the debris where it is now? Heard stories from relatives of the original workmen about guards sitting on the hopper barges at night with shotguns at the ready. Hmmmm

As for smuggling I have seen translations of Spanish archives that talk about the rampant smuggling using every method you could think of, including (this was in the archival record) of a captain being caught with his longboat carrying an anchor of solid silver painted black. People are people...

 

[rgecy]

This topic has been discussed here before. Yes, they used any method they could to smuggle. Down in the holds, I am sure you would get some private time because this is the least desirable place to be, with the smell, etc. I have a picture of a silver spike and have even heard of gold being used as well. This is one reason I also check any timbers I come across. You never know.

I'll see what I can find.

Robert

 

[Peg Leg]

Here we go again.
Silver NAILS were NOT used to hold ANYTHING together.
This was done by the common sailor whose job it was to apply TAR and PITCH where there was a leak.
The Captain would NEVER go into this area. This was the job for the GRUNT. The GRUNT would take his hammer and spikes/nails and a bucket of tar and pitch and go into the hole for repair work. No one would pay any attention to this person hammering-IT WAS HIS JOB.
After hammering in a few of these small nails he would then cover them with the tar and pitch.
NOW you tell me what Captain would go and inspect what the hammering was all about NOT A SINGLE ONE.
Also please tell me who in their right mind would go into a space where there was fresh pitch and tar-WOULD YOU. Have you every done any roofing-well I have and it is a very dirty job putting on the TAR and the tar has to be hot or it will not stick. I may be wrong but I believe this was the job of a BOATRIGHT. It was his job to keep the ship a float. The CAPTAIN sailed the ship but the BOATRIGHT kept it afloat
If you think about this you will understand what I am saying or trying to say.
YES THERE WERE SILVER NAILS USED TO SMUGGLE SILVER BACK TO SPAIN AND THERE DID NOT HAVE TO BE THAT MANY TO SUPPORT A FAMILY.
I am surprised that ANYONE doubts this happening.
We CAN continue this DEBATE anyway you want to.
I KNOW WHAT I KNOW AND WHAT I HAVE.
OH, before we continue this friendly debate.
The regular nails/spikes were NOT pulled out and replaced with these silver nails that would be STUPID and the ship might come apart and BOATRIGHTS were NOT STUPID.
One last question:
If I were to drive one of these silver nails into a piece of wood and cover it with PITCH and TAR do you think you could find it WITHOUT SCRAPING THE TAR OFF. NO WAY.
Peg Leg

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

YES Sir, there is plenty you can do with it.
First check for SPIKES or SILVER NAILS.
Then have the wood dated and classified as to what type wood it was. This will tell you were the ship was built.
With all this material covering the Beach you would think that the State of Florida would have been interested but since it was not Gold or Silver or Gem stones I guess not .
Peg Leg
If this happens again I will take ALL I can get.

Yes, I checked some of pitch covered wood, found some spikes and I kept some larger pieces of lead sheathing, but time was limited, the tide was rising and I wanted to spend as much time as possible with my coil to the soil so to speak. Most of the floating wood was piled up and carried away to the dump, I would imagine, the rest is buried. Looked like some large Brazilwood cords. I thought it was a shame. Am I the only person that noticed the neglected large piles of wood?

I have heard of a silver spike but havent seen one. Someone else on this forum has one, I believe.

 

[Peg Leg]

Gdaddyflex . Sailors today get paid when they hit a harbour . They have a blast for a couple of days and then go back on board again . In the days of the Spanish Treasure fleets it was a little different . Sailors usually got paid when they left the ship in Spain . Less deductions for this and deductions for that ( and you thought we were the only ones taxed ) . How could they buy these silver nails ? Who made those silver nails ? ( silver was in the hands of government officials protected by the crown ) . So I am puzzeled . Aren't you a little ? Cornelius

NO I am not puzzeled at all. What if the silver were traded for with other items from the ship like a Musket or a sword or gunpowder etc.
History changes everytime someone writes a NEW BOOK.
You may be good at history but you do not know EVERYTHING.
The Crown could not control EVERYONE and EVERYTHING SO go ahead and read your history books but like I said before you DO NOT KNOW everything.
Peg Leg

 

[ScubaFinder]

Guys, when a ship returned from a long voyage to the new world, it often spent months in port under repair before setting out again. If it was so easy to pay a guy on a tender to smuggle your contraband back to shore, why is it so hard to believe that you could pay a shipbuilder to help remove the silver nails while refitting and keep his mouth shut. Open your minds a little. I've read this several places, and I don't read books from hacks or uninformed people.

One reference is in "Encyclopedia of Underwater and Maritime Archaeology" by James P. Delgado, I'm sure historians of your caliber have this book. Check it out, you will see....there is another reference also, but I cannot recall where.

Jason

 

[rgecy]

You know, its always the same ones who want to take the opposite side. Maybe we will get to be the teacher on this one!

As for the picts, my scanner is down, but you can check any number of books. Pg 41 of Galleon Alley by Bob Weller shows the picture of a screw that was cast in silver. On page 42 shows a Gold Spike "painted and pounded into a plank to be removed at home in Spain!"

This is well documented that this was done. A number of silver and gold spikes have been found that would certainly substantiate this.

PegLeg, when you get a chance, please post a picture of your spike for the students!

Robert

 

[ScubaFinder]

If the fact that Weller, Delgado, and others found them ON Spanish shipwreck sites is not enough for you to believe they are Spanish, I'm afraid I cannot help you. This is so well documented, and you are so well read, it's strange to me that we are even having this conversation. I'm sure the Board Certified archeaologists, well respected long-time treasure hunters and published authors, and everyone else on this forum are all wrong.

Sorry, that wasn't very civil....but hard-headedness from normally intelligent people frustrates me. What's up with you Cornelius? It seems you can't make a helpful post anymore...always combative and generally uninformative. That is a far cry from what we are used to seeing you post...it's very dis-heartening.

Jason

 

[Peg Leg]

Sometimes OLD age will influence the thinking -hell it does with me .
My scanner is also down and has been to a few months.
When I get the time I will take a few photos and have someone post them here for me.
As far as the wood is concerned I was thinking about building a few items from this old wood and useing even the curved pieces sure would make a good looking coffee table which every PIRATE should have one .
NOT FOR FIRE WOOD-I DO NOT EVEN HAVE A FIRE PLACE.
PEG LEG

 

[ScubaFinder]

Geez man, LAST WEEK I INVITED YOU TO COME DIVE WITH US!!!! On our boat, on our lease, anytime this summer that you wanted too. Darren has also, Tom did a few week back, and i'm sure others have as well. How does that make us a clique, how does that exclude you? I know you guys are smart, and well studied. Instead of laughing with Marx about this forum, how about you ask him about silver spikes? I bet he tells you the same thing I did...but I also bet you won't do it.

Cornelius, I don't like to fight either....but in your own sentiment, you are asking me to take your word without any proof also. How do I know you've been to all these library's, how do i know you've ever been diving on a shipwreck? You have pictures of me on the bottom, with 8 reales in my hand. All I have is your word that you've done the things you say you have. I believe that you have, just pointing out that your advice applies to you also, and you haven't even tried to prove that there WEREN'T silver spikes smuggled in wood, just disagreed with those of us who have read that they were, 6 of us, only 3 of which are in the "clique" you guys have grown to hate so much. I once felt bad, like maybe we had actually done something wrong to you guys...now I wonder if it's not just jealousy.

Grubby, We are not wannabes....we are gonnabe's. Wannabes sit behind a desk and wish they were out treasure hunting, we bought sub-contractors leases, outfitted boats, and are ready to go the second the weather cooperates. How is this a wannabe again?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

That will be cool Peg Leg=======I would love to have a table made from old ships wood. I have never maintained that there are not spikes or nails made from silver. I just like to see proof and pics of objects found. I find Jasons and Gecys posts with their inuendos directed in my direction a sign of the rift that exsists on this forum with certain members. If some of us like to take a subject and pry it apart and look at all aspects of it then we get condemned because it wasn't all warm and fuzzy. How credible would I be if I wrote stories and did not supply the proof as an example. Gee! Guys I found 2 dozen gold bars, but sorry I can't supply any pics or proof, just take my word. I've taken Cornelius side in this matter over others because, he has more knowledge and experience than most here. Reading books isn't all he just does. I've been removed -deleted, had my password messed with and gotten silly egotistical posts thrown at me. I have also gotten support from a silent few who do not like to get embroiled in the politics that take place here. I really can say that with the exception of the Nugget site and several other sites on this forum that I have benefited and learned nothing worth writing about on the shipwreck section of this forum. A simple fact like silver spikes can be accepted as a fact without proof on this site. This section of the forum is a joke. I am out of here and people whom I talk to such as Marx and Webber over matters of importance and knowlege will be told what a joke this site is. Maybe I'll write an article for one of the mags talking about forums and the joke that this one is so that newbies won't have to feel left out of a clique of Florida based wanna bes. This is my last post here. I will continue on the other sites where I haven't had one nasty remark made in my direction. Maybe the moderator who is part of the cligue should move this post or delete it also.
Ole.grubstake

Everyone here realizes your professionalism and experience on the West Coast, Grubstake. You and Corny are both respected on this forum. TN is for professionals, gonnabes and wannabes alike and we used to all get along. No one is all teacher or all student. Hopefully we can all offer something little. I hope you change your mind about being your last post and any badmouthing of TN.

 

[Peg Leg]

It does not matter what ship the silver nails came from-Spanish, Dutch. UK or even ancient Roman.
The fact still remains that these nails were recovered from the beach near Juputer Inlet.
Yes I will agree that it would be a simple matter to make these nails. I even EM a friend about maybe trying to do this myself but there is a problem. The nails that I have weigh a total of 152 grams. This would equal about 5/ REALE 8 coins. This would really be an expensive little project to undertake and who in their right mind would melt down coins to make a nail this day and time.
Some one ask if they were assayed YES they were and YES they are silver. The percent of silver went from .800 to a little over .925. To me this could have been Scrap SILVER left over from trimming the coins by the assayer and stolen and made into nails. They appear to have been cast and then hammered because they are square shaped and tapered down to a point. I only have one nails that has a point the other three have no points and appear to have been broken off. They are all BLACK in color except where the assay was done using a scratch stone and the silver nails all are pock marked due to the salt effect.
One of the reasons embedded in the wood that I am wanting pieces of wood from the beach or the ocean is to make a small display where I can show a nail or two. This display will be mounted on a square piece of Mahagony. The nail will be standing up from the piece of ship wood and then attached to the polished piece of mahogany. My cousin is a Master wood builder and he will do this for me.
Here is something that you all may find interesting:
In 1987 I studied FIRE ANT HILLS and go the idea of what the ant hill would look like from the inside.
I was in the Precious metal recycling business and had 300 pounds of computer boards. I reclaimed all the silver solder mixed with lead and zinc and went am melted this stuff down and poured it into a FIRE ANT HILL.
When it cooled I pulled the metal from the ground and cleaned it off. I had a perfect piece of MAN MADE coral. I then attached this material to a square block of aluminum. I then placed a few COPIES of Gold coins here ant there and draped a gold chain ovet the piece.
The apperance is that of piece of coral with gold laying on it.
I will aslo provide a photo of this piece when I take a photo of the nails.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TIDE CHANGES OR SILVER NAILS BUT I SIMPLY WANTED TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE AND LET EVERYONE COOL DOWN.
pEG lEG

 

[ScubaFinder]

Grubby,

I've been angry and hot too, and much like you jump to Cornelius' defense, I jump to my friends/partners defense. Everytime one of you makes a clique comment, or laughs about people because of the location they are hunting (Florida) you are indirectly talking about me, and some of my best buds. I know I take it too personally sometimes, and I will work on that.

For the record, Florida is FAR from the only place we have plans. We have permitting processes in the works in other countries already, we have FOUND historic shipwreck sites outside of Florida that are being investigated by state archaeologists right now. We don't tell you guys everything we are up too...but it's a hell of a lot more than a few Fisher Leases in Florida. Those are our launching grounds, a place to test equipment, learn processes, and become a smooth running team before we set sail for other sites in other seas.

I'm not sure when, how or why this became these guys against those guys We never wanted or initiated that by any stretch of the imagination. We're just a group of really good guys trying to become a reputable treasure salvage company....period. Let's all bury the hatchet.

Peg, I can't wait to see the ant hill cast, sounds cool. I could care less about the silver spike now. LOL

Jason

 

[rgecy]

Grubby, you did state that you didn't know either way. But you lump yourself right in with Cornelius and back his statements. Why? Are the rest of us just ignorant?

As for our clique. Webster's defines a clique as "a close group of friends or coworkers with similar interests and goals, whom outsiders regard as excluding them." Who has been excluded? I have always invited people, to come dive with me and there is not one person in our group who wouldn't do the same. There is not one person here who isn't welcome on my boat! Our group is undertaking several projects right now; 1715 sub-contractors, working with the State of NC on identifying an unknown 19th century wreck, permits on a wreck in DR, and one in Key West. Now, does that sound like wannabees?

This forum has been around a good while, and many friendships have been made, partnerships created, projects started. Why is there so much annimosity?

Cornelius wants there to be more international discussion. OK. But the fact is, that a majority of the people here are stateside. I even tried to get a few investors interested in Cornelius' Indonesia project for him, but most people are focus in other areas. I believe in him and think it is a great project, and if I had the money and resources, I would help him out. (Even after our little fuss lately!) I still have high regards for Cornelius. I have even talked with Cornelius and wanted to meet him the next time he was stateside.

I am just tired of hearing people complaining and the fact of the matter is, Cornelius has been behind most of the problems here over the last year because of his dominant personality and (forgive me) his know it all - my word is final - attitude!

I am a D type as well, but, you have to have respect for other people! Over the last few weeks, I have pushed the line, YES! But it's only because this forum has gone down hill with all the negative remarks passing back and forth and I put the blame mostly on him! He has been at the root of almost every problem with his inflammatory and negative comments. And you are right there backing him!

I have always been cordial to everyone on this forum. Other than my rant as of late, you will not find one harsh word or negative remark posted by me! You have bashed me, the mods and my friends and I am insulted, discusted, and tired of the BS. But unlinke you or Cornelius, I am not threatening to leave!

If I have offended anyone else, I am truly, truly sorry!

So as for Spikes of Silver or Gold: here is your picture! (Courtesy Bob Weller and Ernie Richards, Galleon Alley) If this isn't enough, then nothing in the world will convince you otherwise!

 

[Peg Leg]

I really did not want to get upset over some damn nail no matter what is was made from.
No matter what is said or who says it Cornelius will never accept any evidence from anyone other than HIMSELF-meaning that he has to be the one who finds one of these nails embedded in a ship wreck on the bottom of the ocean somewhere ALL BY HIMSELF.
I THINK THAT THIS TOPIC SHOULD END
HERE AND NOW.
Peg Leg

 

[Hoosier Kingfisher]

How come you shipwreck dudes cant get along ...... Must be the salt water