Dutch Wrecks Off Florida...

[jeff k]

I came across the following years ago, but I haven't been able to find anything on these wrecks in my reference books.

1626: 13 Dutch ships at Ays; 3 wrecked and crews living in Indians houses; enemy usually anchors off Ays and Jega; Mosquitoes are the curse of Ays; Fort should be erected there.

 

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[SEAHUNTER]

I would very much appreciate it if anyone who comes up with anything on this would copy me with any thing they feel like sharing. I find this subject fascinating from a historical point of view in that it would tell us in how and where the spanish lived while they were here in Jupiter.
Seahunter

 

[Peg Leg]

Cornelius,
Usually when you say this it means that you have no knowledge. This is no way an insult and should not be taken as one.
What seems strange to me is that you are willing to share information and give the cords to where shipwrecks are located but do not want to share information concerning the INDIANS OR is the the Dutch ships you do not want to share information on?
Sometimes you are really funny.
Peg Leg

 

[FISHEYE]

when i first got into shipwreck treasure hunting here in florida.i had a chat with a 90 yr old man that told me about a dutch wreck that his great great grandfather knew about.he told me that it was wrecked near a fresh water spring in the ocean close to shore.he said ships would come inshore an toss buckets with ropes on them to get fresh water.he really couldnt tell me where but me an a friend found the spring an the wreck.since the ocean has receded.the spring was capped off and in someones yard.we checked with the state an found out the fishers had a lease on the wreck.we talked to mel.he said there was no treasure on the wreck.this was over 30 years ago.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Fisheye, I'm confused...you're a smart guy...but all the map comparisons I've done show that the ocean has not receeded, but encroached. If you look at Jega from a 1700's map the land mass is larger and extends further out in all areas than it does on a current map. I know todays mapmaking skills are much more precise, but even in photographs from 10 years ago there is a significant decline in land mass, is that all beach erosion? I know the seas receeded thousands of years ago, but for the past 50 years or so they have been rising according to scientists (not that I always believe those guys ).

Just curious as to what I'm missing.

Jason

 

[Peg Leg]

On the Gulf Coast there was found the remains of an old Indian village 1 mile into the Gulfand it was not on an island.
When the 1715 ships went down there was a barrier reef but this reef now has a highway built on it called A1A.
Peg Leg

 

[ScubaFinder]

On the Gulf Coast there was found the remains of an old Indian village 1 mile into the Gulfand it was not on an island.

This would indicate that sealevel has risen significantly on the west coast since the indians occupied the area.

When the 1715 ships went down there was a barrier reef but this reef now has a highway built on it called A1A.

And this would indicate that the seas have receeded significantly on the east coast since the galleons sailed by. Those two things can't happen at the same time.

There is conflicting evidence here, I'm just trying to sort it out.

 

[mad4wrecks]

The sea level has not changed all that much in the last 300-400 years...the timeframe we are concerned about in relation to the shipwrecks.

The barrier reef that Pegleg talks about is the 'barrier island' that runs between the Indian River Lagoon system and the ocean.

 

[Peg Leg]

THAT IS CORRECT and if it were not maintained it would turn back into a Barrier Reef or a Sandbar and this would happen in a very short period time and still may happen one of these days.
Peg Leg

 

[Madonna of Utrecht]

Hello Gentlemen,

I was reading this thread and thought I might have an observation of interest; particularly since you all were very helpful with my lead-seal questions. I have been fortunate to do some translation work of wind observations and sailing instructions on many early 18th century navigational charts of the Caribbean. As a result, I have also been involved in locating several coastal terrestrial points on the 18th century charts against modern satellite images of the same coastline. My experience yielded the following general observation: sea levels have risen over the last five hundred years, but against this rise must be calculated a very noticeable reduction in the amount of freshwater flowing into estuarine and bay features. This reduction of fresh water discharge into marine environments has caused some unusually extreme differences between the early modern coastlines charted in early maps and the coastlines as they present themselves today.

Haiti and the Dominican Republic are very dramatic examples of this phenomenon; in several areas charted by the Spanish in the 16th century, both log books and navigational charts show large rivers flowing into bays. Today in Haiti and the Dominican Republic, most of these large freshwater flows have been diverted for human purposes and the local shoreline where the river once opened onto a bay or estuary is now silted up and completely dry.

I do not know too much about the complex and varied Florida freshwater hydrologic flows; however, I have read that the trend of substantial fresh water flows and sources having been diverted by human use has significantly affected the amount of freshwater flowing from the Ocheechobee-Everglades system into the Florida straights. As in Hispaniola, one is likely to encounter local areas along the coastline where the freshwater outflow has either diminished or been diverted to such an extent that previously submerged land now appears elevated. This might explain the anomaly described by Mr. Fisheye with respect to the freshwater spring and yet allow for a general trend of rising sea levels.

Best Regards Treasure Hunters ,

Ursula Utrecht

 

[Darren in NC]

Ursula - thanks so much for sharing your research with us. Very insightful and useful in our map interpretation.

TR - awesome to see you posting again, my friend.

Godspeed!
Darren

 

[stevemc]

The ancient indian living areas that Peg Leg spoke about are 10000 + years old. The last ice age. There are quite a few found within 90' of water off the west Coast. A North FL university has been working the Aucilla River basin, which has several sites, and these are way out in the Gulf. And about the 1715 sites, Corrigans main wreck is under the land, in the 1940's when the first house was built, they found anchors and cannons. I have a picture of a newspaper article from then, and no mention of treasure though. Now condos are there. Possibly North of Sebastian Inlet there may be some under the shore. I have a 5'x3' coil PI and used it on Corrigans beach. I got some big hits, probably cannons, and dug, but hit water. This was back when the beach was a lot smaller, before they pumped it.

 

[stevemc]

They were digging the foundation and septic tank, and hit the ship, and the cannons and anchors were all they pulled out. The newspaper clipping showed an anchor hanging from a crane on the site.

 

[Rusty Sailor]

Paleo-Indian Period (10,000 b.c. to 8,000 b.c.) - It is thought to have been about 3,000 years later (10,000 BC) before any of these early Paleo-people arrived in North Florida. This would have been at a low water period and Florida would have been about twice as large as it is today because the sea level would have been about 20 to 30 feet lower than today. The additional land mass would have been all of the Florida Bay and a significant part of the Gulf of Mexico. With the rising sea waters the Paleo-Indian's food supply evolved from large animals as bisons, mammoths, etc. to the surviving species of rabbit, deer and marine life..............................

http://www.keyshistory.org/prehistindians.html

 

[Rusty Sailor]

From the same link above...

In November 2002, Mel Fisher under-water archaeolists found an underwater forest near the site of of the Henrietta Maria slave ship about 35 miles off of Key West. It appears to be a burned forest of prehistoric pine land and radiocarbon cones and wood were dated as 8,400 years old. Albeit no human remains have been found, it does indicate that a habitat was available had humans been there. I predict more evidence will be discovered where there is sand to cover the artifacts. The inhabitation by the Mayas has not been ruled out. There is more to be learned than is known. However,

 

[Rusty Sailor]

scroll down to history. It talks about the Tequesta Indians and Spanish arriving.

http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/m/mi/miami.html

 

[Madonna of Utrecht]

Hello Gentlemen,

Stevemc and Rusty Sailor, your comments on the paleogeography of ancient Florida and its relation to human settlement along the coastline shed additional light on the very complex issue of interpreting historical documents as well as archaeological evidence when faced with comparison with our modern littoral shorelines. In conjunction with TR's observations with respect to Haiti and the Dominican Republic (I am, academically speaking, envious), the consensus appears to be that the modern geographic reality of many potential archaeological sites may have changed radically and in unexpected ways. Thank you for your insights!

However, I now feel a little self-conscious about not commenting on Dutch Wrecks off Florida. I am far from an expert on this subject, but here are some observations that may be of interest:

I know for all of you reading this thread, the 1628 capture of the Habsburg Treasure fleet by Piet Pieterzoon Hein, Admiral Dutch West Indies Company (WIC) is basic knowledge; however, it may be of interest to focus on Admiral Hein's sailing instructions for the Dutch fleet while on station positioning to intercept the Spanish vessels. The Dutch captains were ordered to patrol between Cabo San Antonio ( between the Yucatan channel and the gulf of Guanahuacabibes) and the what we now call the Dry Tortugas. Pinance and shallop vessel types were used close to Cabo San Antonio because of their speed, shallow draft, and low sail profile on the horizon. Additionally, these smaller vessels moved between the larger vessels of the Dutch fleet in relays. When Admiral Hein drove the Spanish fleet inshore at Matanzas Bay in 1628, the shallow draft Dutch vessels played a major roll in relieving the Spanish of their loot.

Needless to say, Piet Hein had a difficult time keeping his fleet on station, wooded, watered, and otherwise supplied in hostile territory. Squadrons of shallops under the protection of larger Dutch vessels were sent into the Floridas for provisions.

Now when one compares Dutch navigational charts against Spanish navigational charts for the 17th century, there are some noticeable differences between the two. These differences may in part be related to the very different sailing traditions and shipdesigns in use by the two nations. The Dutch, owing to the sand shoals proximate to their coastline and their long tradition of Baltic sailing, lofted vessels of much shallower draft, generally, than the Spanish. Moreover, large Dutch vessels (Flyboots for example) were often equipped with a yacht that was used to venture over hazardous shoals and reefs, and in some cases, far upriver. What follows from this type of navigation and sailing equipment is that Dutch maps show what the Dutch consider usable ports in areas where the Spanish maps show dangerous shoals. Very often, because the Dutch were actively engaged in circumventing the Habsburg monopoly on trade within Spanish possessions, the Dutch charts will show a port or anchorage within 20 nautical miles of a major deep-water Spanish port. Interestingly, all of the Dutch smuggler-ports (forgive the phrase) are all bounded by shoals or reefs but have a navigable entrance (a break within the shoal or reef system) that affords passage at certain stages of the tide when wind conditions are right. Lastly, most of these Dutch anchorages were situated with easy access to a river navigable by indigenous watercraft at least.

It is likely that understanding the Dutch methodology of sailing and transacting on the Caribbean could lead a treasure hunter to identify previously unnoticed sites of interest along the Florida Keys or elswhere where a Dutch vessel may have met its untimely end.

Very Best Regards,

Ursula Utrecht

 

[Peg Leg]

This has caused me to rethink my Ghost Ship.
Could it actually be a Dutch ship and not a Spainish ship.
Can you provide any information on the size of these shallow draft ships.
Thanks
Peg leg

 

[Peg Leg]

Modonna of Utrecht,
Can you tell me of any Dutch ships that went down in the Gulf of Mexico during this time?
Thanks again.
Peg Leg

 

[Rusty Sailor]

Peg Leg,
This is a link to a list of ships that sunk in the Gulf. Some found, some not yet found.
http://www.electricbluefishing.com/shipwrecks_of_florida.htm

Good Luck,
Rusty