Spannish Government Bullcrap!

[Au_Dreamers]

I believe that "scrap value" nonsense is an archeology 101 creed. They want one to believe that it is worthless if it isn't recovered by bureaucratic archeologists.

A collectible is a collectible.

Let's just step into the fantasy world that shipwrecks in Florida have not been archeologically excavated.
Then how do their artifacts receive such premium prices?

How do artifacts through Sedwick auctions and others without official provenance claim nearly the same if not the same as artifacts that have official provenance?

 

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[Blak bart]

Au I think that your signature quote describes it very well. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Limitool]

tool, while some of us are trying to work within the system, it is people like you with these misguided concepts that are the fuel that will be used to shut down the system.

Keep up the good work, and continue to complain as to why there are ever more constraining rules and restrictions.

So what you find, how do you sell it without provenance, or dont you care and just sell it for scrap value? As you have no proof of ownership, is the sale of the recovery through the black market or what, pawn shops?

Simply brilliant.




On TNET, there are many people trying to treasure hunt and work within the system, and make treasure hunting as living as such.

Blind statements like yours make you part of the problem, not the solutions many of us are moving forward with, and should be vilified on this site, not supported.
Those supporting such a statement should be isolated from this business and vilified as well, as they have no place in this business moving forward.

So.. what do you suggest then? If someone finds a couple of leather satchels of gold coins hidden under 6-10 rocks no less than a foot deep... & ... deep within a wooded area are "they" to then report it to others? And if to others then who are these people? Why would anybody want or desire to do this? We all know this will lead to many "others" then becoming involved and why?

That couple in CA. who found the tin cans of gold coins were absolutely STUPID.... now they realize it I'm sure.

Please give me a reason on WHY somebody would want to report a find such as the CA. couple or some idiot finding a couple of bags of gold coins in old leather bags? What am I missing here...?

 

[seekerGH]

Please give me a reason on WHY somebody would want to report a find such as the CA. couple or some idiot finding a couple of bags of gold coins in old leather bags? What am I missing here...?

A blanket statement that has significant ramifications to this business.

The couple that found the tin cans of gold coins, just how far do you think the could have legally gone without it being 'reported' ? Even pawn shops have to run checks on the stuff being brought in. You really think that a hoard of rare gold coins would be brought into the market without notice? What, run it on the black market, everyone uses that for finds, right? I guess not being experienced thieves, they had no idea on how to fence a recovery.

Please provide a reason why the regulators should not restrict recovery efforts when you feel that finds should not be reported. You suggest that while working on permission from a land owner, that when you find something, you dont say anything.

You and many others posting here, make it obvious that you cannot be trusted to report finds, yet you cannot comprehend why you are being restricted.

There is talk here of forming a industry group to support treasure hunting, does that include people like you and the others that will not report your finds?

Plain and simple, get out of the way of the legitimate recovery efforts.

 

[The_Piratess]

I'm with you Capt. Dom, for oh, let's say 10% off the top.

I agree. Remember when the British actually invited Buccaneers and some Pirates as well to live on Port Royal in Jamaica and to plunder Spanish ships that were plundering everybody else and to also be a deterrent to attacks? They only took 10% off of the top from them. I know it ended up sinking but they were also killing the Spaniards too! And other debaucherous things...

Let the greedy crooks fight amongst each other over the 10% only and not with us over ALL of it!
It's things like this that turns the best of buccaneers and privateers into pirates...

 

[capt dom]

I would have kept the E.O. Antikythera device for the same reason as the untrained sponge diver...because it was found in conjunction with loads of obviously ancient artifacts. There would have been precious few EO's in association with the Antikythera wreck. Incidentally, I posted a great link to a documentary on the discovery of the device on this forum a couple of years ago. You might want to watch it.

Without even thinking, here are just a few wrecks found in the Americas by treasure hunters: all the 1715 wrecks, all 19 of the 1733 wrecks, Atocha, Santa Margarita, Concepcion, Maravillas, Juno, Galaga, Whyda, Hunley, Queen Anne's Revenge, Georgiana...these are just some of the more famous ones....there are many more...why don't you provide me with a similar list of wrecks found by fishermen and spongers (LOL) in the Americas ?

When you talk of "spongers" are you referring to government archeologists?

 

[huntsman53]

A blanket statement that has significant ramifications to this business.

The couple that found the tin cans of gold coins, just how far do you think the could have legally gone without it being 'reported' ? Even pawn shops have to run checks on the stuff being brought in. You really think that a hoard of rare gold coins would be brought into the market without notice? What, run it on the black market, everyone uses that for finds, right? I guess not being experienced thieves, they had no idea on how to fence a recovery.

Please provide a reason why the regulators should not restrict recovery efforts when you feel that finds should not be reported. You suggest that while working on permission from a land owner, that when you find something, you dont say anything.

You and many others posting here, make it obvious that you cannot be trusted to report finds, yet you cannot comprehend why you are being restricted.

There is talk here of forming a industry group to support treasure hunting, does that include people like you and the others that will not report your finds?

Plain and simple, get out of the way of the legitimate recovery efforts.

I am sorry but I can no longer hold my tongue or in this case, my fingers from responding. Brad is the most honest and giving person you will ever know and to suggest that when working a permission, he would not report it to the landowner is a downright lie and falsehood. Go back and read his posts again as he never said such a thing and you only pulled this accusation out of your anal area because it is downright crap. Brad pulls all kinds of horse shoes, oxen shoes and wagon related items out of the ground from an old wagon road that runs behind his' house and he would report every single one of them to the property owner but the property owner cares less about them or any other find that Brad makes or we make together when I am visiting him and his' wife Bonnie.

As far as the CA couple selling the Gold coins they found and them not reporting them, folks do it all of the time. I know dozens of Coin Dealers that have hundreds of sellers that bring them items almost every week or so, which they purchase and nothing is ever said or asked. The same Coin Dealers hold onto these purchases for 30 days just in case Law Enforcement comes around looking for stolen items. For that matter, the CA couple more than likely could have sold every single coin at a Coin Show near them in one day. They could possibly find one Coin Dealer to take them all to or spread them out over 5 or 10 Coin Dealers or more. I have agreements with a few Coin Dealers somewhat locally that if I come across a Coin collection that is rare and unique and need the money to purchase it, they will supply me with the funds, even it that is hundreds of thousands of dollars or more. They know me, know that I know coins and how to buy them right so that we both make some money.

The restrictions on finds and treasure hunting is more of a case of State officials including Archaeologists thinking they deserve a cut or all of the finds than from folks not reporting the finds. Even worse, is the fact that many of the finds that are confiscated by some states and especially the State of Florida (by their' Employees and/or Law Enforcement such as the Florida Marine Patrol), get turned in but seem to never make into the State's Treasury or any museum. Now, who is more the criminal?

We need associations for Treasure Hunters and Treasure Salvors to fight the greed, fraud and corruption within the States that are so and to stop them from giving the finds away to Spain, France or other countries that have done nothing to find the same in the last 300 to 500 years, pillaged them in the first place but yet they believe they deserve to be given these items. Most of this is done for favoritism or favors when the time comes and it is needed by the State, it's politicians or even higher ups. To be honest, if I found something(s) and was ordered to surrender them to Spain, I would risk jail or even prison time and dump the finds in the Challenger Deep before I would let Spain have them.

Plain and simple, get out of the way of honest, law abiding treasure hunter and Treasure Salvor recovery efforts. If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem!!


Frank

 

[aquanut]

To be honest, if I found something(s) and was ordered to surrender them to Spain, I would risk jail or even prison time and dump the finds in the Challenger Deep before I would let Spain have them.
Frank

That's been done before Frank.

 

[Darren in NC]

True, John and Frank. Just look up Tom Gurr and Florida treasure on Google. 40 some odd years later, and things haven't changed a bit.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/shipwrecks/64141-who-real-pirate-here.html

 

[Limitool]

Thanks Frank.... You too are a good man and friend. Some folks are just way to "left" wing in thinking for us to deal with I guess...? Hurry back and let's dig a few more bags of coins up...!!!

 

[Limitool]

A blanket statement that has significant ramifications to this business.

The couple that found the tin cans of gold coins, just how far do you think the could have legally gone without it being 'reported' ? Even pawn shops have to run checks on the stuff being brought in. You really think that a hoard of rare gold coins would be brought into the market without notice? What, run it on the black market, everyone uses that for finds, right? I guess not being experienced thieves, they had no idea on how to fence a recovery.

Please provide a reason why the regulators should not restrict recovery efforts when you feel that finds should not be reported. You suggest that while working on permission from a land owner, that when you find something, you dont say anything.

You and many others posting here, make it obvious that you cannot be trusted to report finds, yet you cannot comprehend why you are being restricted.

There is talk here of forming a industry group to support treasure hunting, does that include people like you and the others that will not report your finds?

Plain and simple, get out of the way of the legitimate recovery efforts.

"The couple that found the tin cans of gold coins, just how far do you think the could have legally gone without it being 'reported' ?" Easy... You can't figure this out? It's common sense for Christ's sake. It's easy!!!!

"Please provide a reason why the regulators should not restrict recovery efforts when you feel that finds should not be reported. You suggest that while working on permission from a land owner, that when you find something, you dont say anything." What...? If someone had permission to be on the land to hunt, fish, ATV and MD at will... Then why in the hell would anybody mention finding 100's of gold coins under some rocks?

"You and many others posting here, make it obvious that you cannot be trusted to report finds, yet you cannot comprehend why you are being restricted." Well this is where you might be confused. Who ever said anybody was restricted to begin with?

"Plain and simple, get out of the way of the legitimate recovery efforts." Ok... we hear ya. But many of us can / could give YOU new meaning to "legitimate recovery efforts". You'd be amazed.

Please give us a reason why such "special" recovery's need to be "reported" to others. You underestimate how easy it is to move multiple gold coins.

 

[capt dom]

"The Rats continue Guarding the Cheese".... when they get the opportunity.... by willing "sheep"..... and the cattle continue to moo...

 

[seekerGH]

"The couple that found the tin cans of gold coins, just how far do you think the could have legally gone without it being 'reported' ?" Easy... You can't figure this out? It's common sense for Christ's sake. It's easy!!!!

You missed the operative term...legally. You also missed, and substantially illustrated the very point I was making.

"Please provide a reason why the regulators should not restrict recovery efforts when you feel that finds should not be reported. You suggest that while working on permission from a land owner, that when you find something, you dont say anything." What...? If someone had permission to be on the land to hunt, fish, ATV and MD at will... Then why in the hell would anybody mention finding 100's of gold coins under some rocks?

Perhaps you should put my comments in the context of the thread and in response to posts before it, or perhaps you did, and again, you illustrate the foundation of my post.

"You and many others posting here, make it obvious that you cannot be trusted to report finds, yet you cannot comprehend why you are being restricted." Well this is where you might be confused. Who ever said anybody was restricted to begin with?

ummmm, did you read the posts by others in this thread?

The restrictions on finds and treasure hunting is more of a case of State officials including Archaeologists thinking they deserve a cut or all of the finds than from folks not reporting the finds. Even worse, is the fact that many of the finds that are confiscated by some states and especially the State of Florida

Again, you failed and fail to consider the context to which the post was made. In context, there is and are signifcant restrictions on underwater recovery. In other context, do you really think there are no restrictions on metal detecting, and the associated reporting of artifacts and income associaed with the sale of the artifacts?

For that matter, the CA couple more than likely could have sold every single coin at a Coin Show near them in one day. They could possibly find one Coin Dealer to take them all to or spread them out over 5 or 10 Coin Dealers or more.

Brilliant! Exactly my point. BTW, those coins they found were nothing special? ahhhh...there you go.

I have agreements with a few Coin Dealers somewhat locally that if I come across a Coin collection that is rare and unique and need the money to purchase it, they will supply me with the funds, even it that is hundreds of thousands of dollars or more. They know me, know that I know coins and how to buy them right so that we both make some money.

To put you comments in the context of the thread and posts, these are the rare coins that MD'rs and treasure hunters find? Yes, I am well aware of how a fencing operation works. Tell me, when you are fencing "hundreds of thousands of dollars or more" of goods to all of these dealers, do you report the income?

"Plain and simple, get out of the way of the legitimate recovery efforts." Ok... we hear ya. But many of us can / could give YOU new meaning to "legitimate recovery efforts". You'd be amazed.

 

[huntsman53]

You missed the operative term...legally. You also missed, and substantially illustrated the very point I was making.

1) They were under no obligation legally or morality-wise to report the find. However, they could pay the IRS taxes on their gain which is exactly what they will be doing once the coins are sold at auction which is all that they are required to do legally. They could do the same by selling off the coins a few at a time to Coin Dealers/Collectors and paying taxes on their gains with no need to inform the authorities and/or world which just opens a can of worms, all of which are looking for their cut.

Perhaps you should put my comments in the context of the thread and in response to posts before it, or perhaps you did, and again, you illustrate the foundation of my post.

2) So, this is your way of steering away from your accusations!

ummmm, did you read the posts by others in this thread?

3) Again, making blanket, unwarranted and unfounded accusations based on opinions and how people feel from a few posts!

Again, you failed and fail to consider the context to which the post was made. In context, there is and are significant restrictions on underwater recovery. In other context, do you really think there are no restrictions on metal detecting, and the associated reporting of artifacts and income associated with the sale of the artifacts?

4) I failed nothing! I know the restrictions all too well as I lived in Florida for one month shy of ten years and know of the confiscations, many lawsuits, thefts of finds (not by the Treasure Salvors or Treasure Hunters), lies, fraud and deceit.

Brilliant! Exactly my point. BTW, those coins they found were nothing special? ahhhh...there you go.

5) Answered in answer #1 but technically no more so than the same denomination, Dated and Minted coins that you will find at most Coin Shows.

To put you comments in the context of the thread and posts, these are the rare coins that MD'rs and treasure hunters find? Yes, I am well aware of how a fencing operation works. Tell me, when you are fencing "hundreds of thousands of dollars or more" of goods to all of these dealers, do you report the income?

6) I don't fence ****! I can and have purchased individual and/or multiple coins and/or entire coin collections from individuals on behalf of the Coin Dealers, who then gave me a cut of the value of the coins for my time and trouble. And although it is none of your business, I do report extra income.


I can't really comment on #7) since I am not really sure what was meant and apparently you were not sure either. However, I will say this: That it is you and like-minded people such as Archaeologists, State Officials and left-wingers with such attitudes and opinions that have already resulted in some but will eventually result in worse armed confrontations on land and the seas. Just remember, that the lands and any sovereign seas and sea floors within a state and within the United States of America, actually belong to the people and the State and Federal Government are only the custodians of them for us!


Frank

 

[2gens2late]

I'm agree w you Capt Dom, it's unfortunate. I'm a 2nd gen hunter from Florida. The Spanish looted n killed for it, why should they get it back and why should there be so many regulations. They all want there slice of the pie. Thanks to my grandfather and a family friend who no one knows of who worked on their own with the guys who started the galleon hunts. I have secrets I have kept for years debating on what could or might happen if I bring certain things out. It would be in the best interest for collectors and archeologist to not let the ocean destroy what's left. And as much as we should stand up n fight there are to many willing to roll.

 

[Blak bart]

Call spain, alert the state, contact unesco, I just found a historically significant wreck. Im sure this incredible wreck will change history. View attachment 1466586
The oppression of the cuban people by a communist regime is really an important story that should be preserved for future generations right ? Now if it were a gold bearing galleon im sure spain would claim it. They would say that all cubans are descendents of spanish settlers thus this wreck falls under there jurisdiction, but the reality is that its trash. I dont need permits or permission to take it, spain and cuba and florida dont care about the story behind it, and its just another one of those not abandoned forigen wrecks. I bet if I line up 20 of these wrecks and charge people to see and learn about the history of cuban rafts that all of a sudden the state will want somthing. You know why because money is being made. The point is that the state and wich ever countries are involved are only interested in the wrecks that bare treasure or have a money making potential. Any body out there want to start a museum of cuban rafts let me know I can pick them up by the dozen. View attachment 1466603 so perhaps our archeological minded friends could start by excavating some of these wrecks. They would be preserving the cultural heritage of the cuban refugees and there desperate voyages to freedom while fleeing the oppressive communist regime of castro. After all these wrecks will be lost forever unless someone preserves them right ? Even with such historical significance no one cares because theres no GOLD. Seems a pretty noble cause for any archeologist. After all there not interested in profits or treasure, but these stories are part of history. Oh ya sometimes there are valuable treasures on board. Like this year 1 matching number chevy small block that is running on a Russian carburetor. View attachment 1466608 sorry that pic wont load right side up. Any way im betting that someone will pay me for that historically significant year 1 small block, and thats why I salvaged it. Runs great because we started it and drove the raft to the dock. View attachment 1466612 heres the almiranta of the fleet.. all kidding aside there is historical significance to these wrecks why aren't the archies preserving these for the state ? Ha ha ha ha haaaa !! Were gonna need millions in state funding im sure.

And you guys thought I was just kidding. this is the first one outside the melfisher muesum. Im sure there will be more of this in the future. When money starts to be made others will get involved and want a slice of pie. Its only a matter of time before a muesum for these rafts is established. And then the state will come along And who knows who else !!

 

[Blak bart]

Oh ya.....if you look on the transom you will see a genuine key west rooster standing there. Even these chickens are protected by law now. There are a whole group of people in keywest working to protect the threatened keywest chickens. These birds have rights dont you know !!! Just another example of overreaching laws and misplaced funds. You may get in trouble with the law if you harass or disturb these chickens when your in key west so be careful !! If you frighten one of these birds and it runs into traffic and gets run over you could be responsible. I once saw the bums on wisteria island barbqueing one. Finger licking good !!

 

[huntsman53]

Oh ya.....if you look on the transom you will see a genuine key west rooster standing there. Even these chickens are protected by law now. There are a whole group of people in keywest working to protect the threatened keywest chickens. These birds have rights dont you know !!! Just another example of overreaching laws and misplaced funds. You may get in trouble with the law if you harass or disturb these chickens when your in key west so be careful !! If you frighten one of these birds and it runs into traffic and gets run over you could be responsible. I once saw the bums on wisteria island barbqueing one. Finger licking good !!

LOL!! You know, if they declare the Cayo Hueso (Key West or Bone Key as the Spaniards called it when they first landed on the island) Chickens an Endangered Species and if they roost, nest, mate or feed anywhere where Spanish Treasure Galleons sunk, then Treasure Hunters/Salvors are really screwed.:dontknow:


Frank

 

[Tom_Restorer]

I for one have had enough of American Lawyers, Lobbists, crooked politians and UNESCO making a mockery of one of the oldest business professions in what use to be our GREAT country; Maritime Salvage. The next thing you know this Ghoule character is going to do is take a run at the 1715 fleet and its long established legal "right to work".

Using this bullcrap war Graves Act in a Court of Law in our country is about as responsible, as letting some former Gestapo Characters make a legal argument that they have some right to the gold they stripped from the teeth of those they incarcerated at concentration camps during WW2!
The Spanish Monarchy exterminated more than 11 civilizations in the name of the "Big Guy" - Jesus - and now the criminals who manipulate our legal system are about to to seize an income opportunity and turn it into a cottage industry, by making an arguement that will essentially turn honest and hard working people into thieves by manipulating public perception...

I am tired of dealing with "cattle" and peoplle who will not stand up when their rights are being manipulated.

We need to unite, stand up and do something about this....

What, if Capt Dom is right on this with every single word ?!

 

[Salvor6]

Of course he is right. Look what's happening to GME.