Spain inspected the site seized by Odyssey

[Darren in NC]

The federal court awarded ownership/custodianship to the private sector salvage company filing the arrest.... over 30 years ago.

I agree that this should be the case, but there is a greater agenda today that supersedes past protocol. The need for sovereign nations to keep other nations away from their own secrets on submarines, spacecraft, etc. drives the current legislation for future precedent. Not to mention greed itself. I'm not saying the US will overturn this 30 year ruling, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did or at least tried to do so. I try to be a realist about the world we live in today. It's not the world of 30 years ago. Because of this truth, I would choose to lay low if I found anything. Celebration is wonderful. I'll celebrate privately with my tight-lipped crew.

 

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[old man]

I agree that this should be the case, but there is a greater agenda today that supersedes past protocol. The need for sovereign nations to keep other nations away from their own secrets on submarines, spacecraft, etc. drives the current legislation for future precedent. Not to mention greed itself. I'm not saying the US will overturn this 30 year ruling, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did or at least tried to do so. I try to be a realist about the world we live in today. It's not the world of 30 years ago. Because of this truth, I would choose to lay low if I found anything. Celebration is wonderful. I'll celebrate privately with my tight-lipped crew.

Darren, we think alike my friend. In today's political environment concerning shipwrecks. I think the wise man would keep his mouth shut when he found anything of value.
Some people are looking for fame and recognition. Personally, I would prefer money over fame, 100% of the time. Others would prefer fame and the chance of attracting ambulance chasing attorneys and greedy Countries.

 

[thetigers2]

old man, I agree with you....

 

[AUVnav]

Rick Schmitt has called the 1715 Royal 8 Escudo they found the resurrection coin, because it brings back to life the story of the 1715 Fleet in its 300 anniversary year. With that also a remembrance of the people.

Explain how the finding of the gold coins says anything about the 1715 fleet and its people?

Splashing the coins and making claims of finders-keepers doesn't appear to pay homage, but to slap Spain in the face.

Where is the archaeology?

 

[Darren in NC]

Current day case and point for intercommunications between nations regarding sovereign wrecks...

Exploration of sunken German U-boat shown online | TribLIVE

From the end of the article..."The U-boat is considered a war grave and is the property of Germany. The team notified the German embassy of the expedition and assured it that it would not touch the boat, according to Michael Brennan, an archaeological oceanographer at the Ocean Exploration Trust."

AUVnav, there were no marine archaeologists prior to treasure hunters finding these wrecks. In fact, the land archaeologists that accompanied the salvagers of decades ago were laughed at. That is, until the treasure was found. Once archaeologists like Duncan Matthewson pioneered what could be done underwater, we began to know all about the cultural heritage of sailing, shipbuilding, events and such like never before. What we know of centuries past is owed to these pioneers. But now that we know these things, why is there an ongoing need to document mounds of repetitive minutia from one area? This should not apply unless there is a new shipwreck from a totally unknown era.

Let us not forget that it is the drive for treasure that made today's underwater archaeology what it is today. The moment you take away the treasure aspect, you will lose countless opportunities for further knowledge. Public funding for mundane minutia (at least mundane to the public at large, not many t-hunters, historians and archaeologists) will never be there on a large scale. The archaeological elite and govt's that legislate shipwreck salvors out of their waters lose valuable cultural heritage that will never be known.

 

[Darren in NC]

Notice what the elite are doing while trying to be helped...

 

[Salvor6]

Invalid attachment Darren.

 

[AUVnav]

Darren,

I understand your points. Then again, we all see what is happening, I mean really, using a scallop dredge to recover the Mercedes?

I also see the exemplary work that is done by maritime archaeologists on the ancient wrecks, and how the recovery with context is so important.

Land based archaeology has certainly changed, and is much different now than in the past.

It is time for underwater recoveries to follow the same path or become a casualty.

Treasure hunters need to start policing their ranks, or it will be shut down

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Explain how the finding of the gold coins says anything about the 1715 fleet and its people?

Splashing the coins and making claims of finders-keepers doesn't appear to pay homage, but to slap Spain in the face.

Where is the archaeology?

Honestly if you can't make the connection yourself I can't help you with it!
Do you even know what it was/is all about?

Splashing?? How about revealing to the world something that is incredibly special at a special time in history that the world would never see if not for private sector salvage.

We don't have to make claims of finders keepers we just state the fact of ownership... the federal court judgment we work under has done that for 30+years.

The archaeology in small scale happened the day it was found. A larger scale will happen after the end of the year as it has happened for over 26 years provided by private sector salvage.

So here's the question for you AUVnav. Where is the Archaeology from the state of Florida that is a "partner" in the 1715 fleet projects? They have all the data, many, many artifacts yet where are the papers? Aren't they employed with Florida citizens tax dollars to do such a job as that? How come those same citizens cannot obtain such things from the State/BAR?

What did the BAR, State do to commemorate the 300 Anniversary of the 1715 Fleet? 99% of things were from private citizens and most of those were/are private sector salvors or relied upon the works done by private sector salvors.

One would think that having a 70? mile stretch of coastline named "The Treasure Coast" mostly because of the 1715 fleet that the BAR/State would have more interest in the 300 year anniversary, wouldn't you?

So let's check reality....no not really. If you went to any of the events the turn outs weren't massive amounts of people.
Most people are ignorant of the 1715 fleet. Most people couldn't care less about some mundane event taking place commemorating a disaster 300 years ago that has faded away to time and isn't even taught in history classes.

Reality check.... More people have been exposed to the story of the 1715 fleet in the past 3 years from the international news about the recovery work from the private sector salvors. It opens many facets of education, career choices... for the people of the world in so many ways.

Reality check. It also creates tourism for the State of Florida. That means $$$ for businesses. That means jobs.

 

[AUVnav]

I don't believe I ever asked for your help. Can you not explain it to me, or can you simply not find the words to explain what you are talking about?

How has the recent splash of gold coins, without context or any other information, commemorated the perils of the 1715 fleet?

Where is the Archaeology from the state of Florida that is a "partner" in the 1715 fleet projects? They have all the data, many, many artifacts yet where are the papers? Aren't they employed with Florida citizens tax dollars to do such a job as that? How come those same citizens cannot obtain such things from the State/BAR?

Archaeology, did the State of Florida excavate the recovery? Did the State of Florida map the site, properly excavate the recovery, detail and conserve the artifacts? After taunting Spain, now you decide to taunt Florida for not providing archaeological context as they are required to do? Perhaps now, they will, to your peril.

Large scale archaeology, what do we have as proper research document of the 1715 fleet, other than coffee table books and images of gold coins?

Most people are ignorant of the 1715 fleet. Most people couldn't care less about some mundane event taking place commemorating a disaster 300 years ago that has faded away to time and isn't even taught in history classes.

The necessity to commemorate the 1715 fleet was to splash a 'finders keepers" find on National TV, knowing well how sensitive Spain is to the issue? As you noted, very few American are even aware of the 1715 fleet.
Therefore, the foundation of your comments fails, as you state, if no one cares or has knowledge, then how is there tourism, $$$ for business, and jobs?

You appear to justify all that is wrong with the current state of treasure hunting.

This too shall pass.

 

[old man]

AuvNav, How did Odyssey Marine salvage the Mercedes? I thought I read a post yesterday that stated that they used a Scallop Dredge and destroyed the wreck site. Is that true? I was under the impression that Odyssey used an ROV for recovery. Just curious.

 

[Salvor6]

There is no archaeologist required by the salvors working the 1715 fleet sites because there is no archaeological context. Everything from the fleet has been scattered and tossed around that there is no archaeological context.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

I don't believe I ever asked for your help. Can you not explain it to me, or can you simply not find the words to explain what you are talking about?

"Explain how the finding of the gold coins says anything about the 1715 fleet and its people? "

That's what you wrote. My reply is if you can't make the connection yourself what I write won't be of any help to you.

"How has the recent splash of gold coins, without context or any other information, commemorated the perils of the 1715 fleet?"

This is a change of parameters to your first question which I believe I answered...

I believe your being deliberately obtuse.

"Archaeology, did the State of Florida excavate the recovery? Did the State of Florida map the site, properly excavate the recovery, detail and conserve the artifacts? After taunting Spain, now you decide to taunt Florida for not providing archaeological context as they are required to do? Perhaps now, they will, to your peril."

So let's get this straight. We, private sector salvors properly recover these artifacts according to the archaeological guidelines set by the state yet you believe we are doing erroneous works but at the same time defend the state for their improper/lack of work and action?

"Large scale archaeology, what do we have as proper research document of the 1715 fleet, other than coffee table books and images of gold coins?"

If you knew as much as you thought you did you would know where these works are.

Again shouldn't these be supplied by the state? Shouldn't the "partner" who supposedly has the education and specialization to do such works be the entity responsible? Let's put it this way. The state has all the information but does not apply it, while private sector salvors have, again with their own dollars. We have constructed debris field maps on paper and electronically with the same information given to the state, where are their maps? There are countless opportunities that graduate students let alone our employees at the BAR could be doing with the information and artifacts provided to them AT MINIMAL COST. Hell it's a struggle to even get the state to come pick up their share of these artifacts.

The necessity to commemorate the 1715 fleet was to splash a 'finders keepers" find on National TV, knowing well how sensitive Spain is to the issue? As you noted, very few American are even aware of the 1715 fleet.
Therefore, the foundation of your comments fails, as you state, if no one cares or has knowledge, then how is there tourism, $$$ for business, and jobs?

No the works were in progress to commemorate the 300 year anniversary but something wonderful happened as the dates approached.

I never noted very few Americans.... you did... I stated people... ( in general) all across the globe

Again you twist my words. I did not say "no one" I stated most people couldn't care less... Therefore we do have people that come to Florida because of what private sector salvors do here.

Do you disagree that the publicity of these finds hasn't exposed people around the globe to the 1715 Fleet?
Do you not believe there are ancillary benefits from that?

You appear to justify all that is wrong with the current state of treasure hunting.

Quite the opposite. I justify the what is right with proper private sector salvage. I educate people on the actual aspects of the industry, not wild rumors run amok.

You appear to justify the state and certain archaeologists blindly no matter what information is provided to you.

This too shall pass.

"Perhaps now, they will, to your peril."

"The Court finds that such behavior on the part of the state constitutes no more than bad faith harassment, justifying abrogation of the Younger Doctrine"
The Court further concludes that, by threatening to arrest the plaintiff's employees for engaging in salvage operations expressly validated by this Court, the State of Florida is attempting to interfere impermissibly with an ongoing federal matter. Such usurpation of the proper jurisdiction of this Court cannot be tolerated.

"In the summer of 1963, Mr. Mel Fisher, owner of a scuba diving shop, came to Florida from California and became associated with Mr. Wagner and Real Eight. Mr. Fisher formed salvaging groups named Universal Salvage Co., Cobb Coin Co., and Treasure Salvors, Inc. Between October 1963 and August, 1972, Mr. Fisher's companies and Real Eight worked some of the sites of 1715 wrecks pursuant to various agreements, under authority of Real Eight's State leases. Under these agreements, they divided their recoveries 50-50 after deducting 25 percent for the Division of Archives and Records Management. The combined effort yielded large quantities of gold, silver, and other valuable artifacts.[2] See Plaintiff's Exhibits No. 8 and 9 and State's Exhibit No. 68. Although the State's archivists admit to having received these artifacts, none could testify with certainty what the State now has, nor are there any records of precisely which of the artifacts it received came from the Corrigan site or other wrecks of the 1715 Fleet."

Yep we're the bad guys.....
​

Yes, for better or worse you are correct because WE are tired of the slander and be-smudging of our profession. We are tired of the lack of professional courtesy. We are tired of the unwillingness of "our employees" to adhere to their contractual obligations. We are tired of wasted tax payers monies all this due to a few elitist attitudes.

Yes we will see in court, again...very very soon... for better or worse!!

 

[Jolly Mon]

Stop getting trolled. This guy has been making 15 to 20 posts everyday for the last 5 years on the Yahoo finance OMEX message board even though he has no financial interest. He posts there under the alias "garscrappa"...and about a dozen others. He has one agenda: to argue. He is not an archaeologist and he is not a treasure Hunter. If you would like a sample of the quality of his posts go back and follow the main Odyssey thread on this forum...where he is busted for who he is by the late Jeff K.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Nah Jolly it's all good. I wanted to post more yesterday but have limited time because the weather has been nice and we've been fulfilling our federal obligation to the court to recover artifacts from the 1715 Fleet wrecks!!

Just got in from rough seas and posted this up....

Plus I do like people to know the truth and facts of the matters at hand

 

[Jolly Mon]

Nah Jolly it's all good. I wanted to post more yesterday but have limited time because the weather has been nice and we've been fulfilling our federal obligation to the court to recover artifacts from the 1715 Fleet wrecks!!

Just got in from rough seas and posted this up....

Plus I do like people to know the truth and facts of the matters at hand

As long as you are having fun with it !!

I just wanted others to know a little history of the poster...

You are right of course. Ownership of the 1715 sites is settled law. And Spain is NOT taking legal action.

But certain posters will make statements like: "Spain appears to be taking legal action"...even though there is absolutely no evidence to support the statement...

Anyway, keep up the good work while the weather holds !!!

 

[AUVnav]

AuvNav, How did Odyssey Marine salvage the Mercedes? I thought I read a post yesterday that stated that they used a Scallop Dredge and destroyed the wreck site. Is that true? I was under the impression that Odyssey used an ROV for recovery. Just curious.

This information was from the Spanish press, it has been posted elsewhere several times in the thread and other related threads.

"It has also been able to see how the treasure hunters have irretrievably damaged the site , since they acted with metal blades, dragged coins and with them removed the sediment in a hurry, in the wild, destroying the context and leaving "complete chaos" as the archaeologist. "

If you would like a sample of the quality of his posts go back and follow the main Odyssey thread on this forum

Yes, by all means, review the posts...and couple that with the outcome. the Mercedes did go back to Spain, the wreck is not in International waters, Odyssey was found guilty of Contempt, and Spain is now reviewing the criminal charges.

"Spain appears to be taking legal action"...even though there is absolutely no evidence to support the statement...

Again, the evidence has been posted several times in this thread and others...simply read the thread, instead of resorting to petty name calling.

"On the probable (and desirable) legal consequences of having documented plundering, the minister said Mendez de Vigo, with due caution, the documentation will meet to submit for consideration of the Spanish justice what happened ."

"Specifically, Mendez de Vigo said the EU intends to bring the achievements of the expedition, a pioneer in many ways , and expects the Spanish archeology "soon decided to undertake a project on a boat that has not been plundered before to apply all this science on such an important "heritage.
He also said he did not rule out that after inspecting the wreck and collected all the documentation, the Ministry of Justice to consider action against treasure hunters for what they did in 2007."

Although the State's archivists admit to having received these artifacts, none could testify with certainty what the State now has, nor are there any records of precisely which of the artifacts it received came from the Corrigan site or other wrecks of the 1715 Fleet."

As you pointed out, Florida may not be doing their job, which is why Goolds statement that Spain is going to ask them why they are not, is important. As you are aware, stuff rolls downhill.

"The government is preparing to request information from the Spanish consulate in Miami after the recent announcement of different treasure hunters companies that have extracted gold of wrecks 1715 fleet sunk off Florida, called on the French Treasury.Also, taking into account that this ship of State, consult with the lawyer James Goold, who represented Spain in cases of Juno and La Galga against Sea Hunt and Mercedes frigate against Odyssey.Spain won both cases (precisely because it was government vessels with sovereign immunity), and from the government both from the law firm in Washington said he sat a precedent that would influence the activity of treasure hunters companies: "If the treasure hunters have not gotten the message is living in a cave, "said Goold ABC "
The finding of 350 gold deposits in Vero Beach (Florida), where the fleet sank in 1715, has once again starkly open debate treasure hunters and the destruction of the historical record of Hispanic origin in the US. UU. at the hands of these "miners' heritage , which only removed the gold and items they can sell. When we remember the 1715 fleet, speak eleven thousand wrecks and dead sailors, such as Spanish American history, along with the famous coin treasure hunt these small businesses removed, regardless of the field and destroy them the context in which they have remained for 300 years."

 

[Jolly Mon]

The "evidence" presented comes from a single butt hurt archaeologist's BLOG. That's it.

Read the rant closely: the quote from Goold is years old. The Spanish government can ask it's consulate anything and everything about settled US law until it is blue in the face but it changes nothing.

The only place the recent 1715 finds have "starkly opened the debate" seems to be on this forum.

When you see a story from a legitimate news organization, a government press release, a court document...in short any sort of real evidence, you can believe the premise that Spain is taking legal action regards the 1715 recoveries.

Personally, I hope Spain does take action. They will be wasting legal fees and they will lose the case.

 

[AUVnav]

The "treasure hunters" Florida get gold

The recent discovery of 60 gold coins from an eighteenth century Spanish galleon, recovered by "treasure hunters" in the seabed off the east coast of Florida, puts the focus back on the looting wrecks suffering Spanish flag.
It is no secret that the eastern United States, primarily in Florida, is an area that houses the remains of old Spanish galleons, hundreds of wrecks, probably, over which they have set their eyes, resources and technology companies " treasure hunters ".

 

[Darren in NC]

From another thread...

Meanwhile Alison Kentuck, the Receiver of Wreck stated that “Our message is clear: all wreck material found within or brought within UK territorial waters must be reported within 28 days to the receiver of wreck. “It is not a case of ‘finders keepers’. Had these artefacts been correctly reported, the finder would have been entitled to a substantial salvage award and important information could have been added to the historical record.”

I have often wondered if Odyssey had brought the Mercedes silver to the Receiver of Wreck (instead of Tampa), if Spain would have been able prove to the UK its ownership. The RoW doesn't mess around. If you can't prove ownership, you don't get anything. If you can, then you must provide a salvage award. Too late now, but I still wonder if the outcome would have been different for Odyssey if they had done so.