Spain suing Odyssey...

[jeff k]

I do know they are allowed to turn off their AIS transponders for security purposes. I don't know if they did this or were just out of range. This should have no bearing on the legal aspects.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Jeff, agreed, unless -------------------

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Peg Leg]

I recall that several years ago a guy was lobster fishing off the East Cost and recovered a lot of treasure.
The bState showed and demanded everything he had.
He contacted a T.V. station and had them furnish a Camera crew. They filmed him throwing the treasure BACK into the sea. He told the State "IF YOU WANT IT GO AND GET IT"
This was on film.
This is a TRUE STORY.
The State tried to charge him with SOMETHING but WHAT? He had put it back.
Of course I do not belive he put it all back-but no one can prove any different.
Peg Leg

 

[piratediver]

The Spanish take on Odyssey:



General News

Spain’s hidden treasure
Juan Francisco Alonso

The “Odyssey” case has raised concern about the many galleons full of silver and gold lying at the bottom of the sea





The modern day search for the sunken wreckage of the “HMS Sussex”, which went down on February 19th 1694 with a significant booty in its bowels, has being going on for several years. During this time maritime law expert, journalist and writer, Lorenzo “Pipe” Sarmiento, has been close on the trail of Odyssey Marine Exploration, and their activities in the Straits of Gibraltar in a number of different vessels. However the US firm continued to be one step ahead and in 2006 they reached an agreement with the British Navy concerning the search for the Sussex and also gained authorisation from the Spanish Foreign Ministry to “survey and identify without disturbing sand, always in the presence of archaeologists from the Junta de Andalucía”.
This authorisation was something of a surprise as it is normally the regional government’s jurisdiction to grant this type of permit. Nevertheless Odyssey arrived with their giant underwater robot and moved plenty of sand without the presence of an archaeologist. What they found may not have been the Sussex but the photographs released once their booty had been taken back to the USA looked like a corner of Ali Baba’s cave: 17 million tons of silver valued at 500 million dollars, taken from a spot somewhere between Estepona, Gibraltar and Sotogrande, according to the AISlive satellite used by Sarmiento; or from international waters, according to Odyssey’s version.

Xavier Nieto, director of the Underwater Archaeology Centre of Cataluña, claims that the apparently unexplainable permit from the Ministry is the result of the neglect suffered by this area of Spain’s culture. “Spain’s underwater archaeology work has arrived late on the scene”, he explains. “Other Mediterranean countries started in the 1950s; we started in 1981 and now we are worse off than we were then. Four centres were set up but with scarce financial and human resources. There are fewer than a dozen professional archaeologists working with this huge heritage, there is no specific university training, except for the odd isolated short course, and a clear legal problem. The 1985 law, which likens underwater archaeology to archaeology on dry land, was not very realistic”.

Nieto goes on to say that the Andalusian coastline is exceptional. “The House of Trade for the Indies was set up in Seville in 1503 and all the galleons sailing from America passed through there. Furthermore the entrance to the Bay of Cadiz is very dangerous and that caused a lot of accidents”.

Gonzalo Millán del Pozo, the writer and director of the Poseidon Project (a group that aims to protect the underwater cultural heritage), speaks of more than 800 sunken galleons with cargoes that could be worth more than a hundred thousand million euros.

An immense booty waiting to be found, or historical and cultural heritage? Carmen García Rivera, coordinator of the Andalusian Underwater Archaeology Centre (CAS) based in Cadiz, clearly prefers the second description. “Our mission is not to recover treasure but to investigate, protect and preserve heritage where it is”. In its first decade the CAS has tried to draw up a thorough archaeological map of Andalusian waters - so far it includes 80 sites - as a step prior to investigation.

Finders keepers?

Carmen García Rivera believes that technological advances ought to serve to protect sunken wrecks and fight against looting. This evidently has not been the case if the Odyssey’s find was made in Spanish waters. This American firm, whose value on the stock market doubled after its million dollar find had been announced, seems to prefer to take the “finders, keepers” attitude.

This recent case will most probably end up in court. On Wednesday the Spanish Government filed a lawsuit in a federal court in Tampa, Florida, (where Odyssey Marine Exploration is based) to block claims by the US treasure hunters to Spanish property recovered from shipwrecks. The Ministry of Culture continues to call the Odyssey’s find, code-named “Black Swan”, suspicious. Odyssey had not commented on the lawsuit at the time of going to press.

There are precedents. In 2001 the Spanish claim to ownership of Spanish vessels sunk in American waters was upheld by the US supreme court. This followed the finding of the remains of the “Juno”, shipwrecked in 1802, by a private firm.



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Pirate diver

 

[pcolaboy]

Yeah nevermind that the Spaniards raped and pilledged the indigenous people to obtain the gold in the first place!

Pcola

Not sure what this has to do with the topic on hand...but, I seem to recall that same scenario happening right here in your backyard a couple of hundred years ago. You forget about American history?

Apparently my comment was taken a bit too seriously. My point was that it's rather poor taste for Spain to be bitching about treasure they obtained by looting in the first place. I wasn't making a political statement but apparently it was not coherently received. Don't ever assume that I'm not aware of the dark chapters of American history that you so eliquently pointed out.

Pcola

 

[pcolaboy]

'Nuff said then.

Pcola

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=SWR
Always obliged to help with Real History when being misused
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Good morning my friend SWR, unfortunately, doesn't most written history fall under that banner - misused or worse?

Remember our Japanese friend in the Yama---treasure? His present history books in Japan have it almost 100% in opposition of the truth from some of my own personal experiences.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[pcolaboy]

'Nuff said then.

Pcola

Always obliged to help with Real History when being misused

Have a point to prove do we? Please use your vast knowlegde of "Real History" to illustrate how my statement was inaccurate.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

A little tough to do since none of us even know the country these coins came from.
Let's try to keep on topic "Spain suing Odyssey".
None of these post have anything to do with the issue at hand.

Thanks

Tom

 

[ivan salis]

ah spain's claim to "legal" of ownership being its "part of their heritage"---since spain used "slave -labor"(yes they did --see the spainish slave ship records and the records of sale of slaves in the "new world" and the taxes "paid" on these sales--- by the way--these are offical spanish records which are part of their "offical" history) to mine the massive amounts of silver and large amounts of gold from the countries they "took" over by force---what if any right do they have to "back" their claim that its theirs legally? ----it was basically "stolen goods" being transported back to SPAIN to support their lavish lifestyle----the law of their day was " you can have what your tough enough to take---strong enough to keep ---and smart enough to hide well from others----the countries from which the silver and gold was "force labor mined" from can lay just as valid (or maybe even stronger) claim that its part of their "heritage" than spain can in my book----think of it like this---If your long dead cousin many years ago robbed a bank and while driving the getaway car went off the road into a deep ditch and drowned with the loot in his car and years later someone "found" it -- that doesn't mean the money in the car is yours as next of kin of the robber---the "money" belongs to the bank from where it was stolen from in the first place and the finder who found and returned the money to its "proper" owner would be legally entitled to a "finders fee" ----as the long lost cousin of the ""thief" you are legally entitled to ZIP----Ivan

 

[Chagy]

If the treasure was not found in Spanish waters I wonder what make Spain think they can claim something they tuck from someone else in the first place. And if it was found in Spanish territory then I guess they have the right to half of it. I am a treasure hunter or let me rephrase that an amateur archaeologist and yes I am trying to work out deals with other contries but I believe in 50% for me finding it and 50% to the country where I found it......As always thats just MHO on the subject that will not make any difference anyway...who care what I think ...right?

Chagy...

 

[Salvor6]

Hey Chagy,
why doesn't Spain file a claim on your wreck in DR? It is a Spanish vessel right? Also, why don't they claim the Magdalena, recently found in Equador?

 

[shipresearcher1]

Well since the shipwreck they found was the "Mercedes" and I believe that it belonged to Mexico, right? Or was the Mercedes a Spanish ship? I don't have any of my materials at hand so I will let you guys look up who it belonged to. What's sad is that OME knows this wreck is only worth about 10-20 mil, hence why they used the venturi to suck up the coins instead of individual. The 50 or so gold coins they picked up might be nice but the silver is going to be trashed. Curious to see what "shipwreck effect" name they will choose for destroying their own haul. This was always their "o-#$%@" wreck when things got bad because it was so easy to get to. But in the end, no matter by what means they accomplished it, they have still done what us armchair people dream about.

 

[rgecy]

Well since the shipwreck they found was the "Mercedes"

shipresearcher1,

Welcome to the forum. You add an interesting account! Where does this information come from? I think this is first I or anyone else has heard of this.

 

[shipresearcher1]

Well since the shipwreck they found was the "Mercedes"

shipresearcher1,

Welcome to the forum. You add an interesting account! Where does this information come from? I think this is first I or anyone else has heard of this.

Although Odyssey has one or two excellent researchers they buy most of their information.

 

[rgecy]

Shipresearcher1,

I guess we are to assume the information on the Mercedes was researched by and purchased from you. How does this tie into the treasure that was recovered? Can you share with us what and how much treasure the Mercedes was carrying? Where was her final resting place? If you are not involved in the recovery with Odyssey, how can you make this claim?

Odyssey claims to have found some 17 tons of gold and silver and has cleaned some 6000 coins. Not to be pessimistic, but it just doesn't seem to fit.

 

[shipresearcher1]

Shipresearcher1,

I guess we are to assume the information on the Mercedes was researched by and purchased from you. How does this tie into the treasure that was recovered? Can you share with us what and how much treasure the Mercedes was carrying? Where was her final resting place? If you are not involved in the recovery with Odyssey, how can you make this claim?

Odyssey claims to have found some 17 tons of gold and silver and has cleaned some 6000 coins. Not to be pessimistic, but it just doesn't seem to fit.

Please, don't assume I sold it to them. The Mercedes is a highly known and recognizable wreck off the Iberian Coast. I think Pickford's juvenile book even lists it. Odyssey has indeed found many tons of silver, they had to hire a 757 to bring it to Florida. Odyssey had a partial sum of coins in Florida a good three weeks before the shareholders meeting, wisely they announced it at a convenient time. Remember the big boys make everything off stock (ala SeaHawk problems), so they are keen and wise to use statements such as "estimated and about". All you need is one gold coin on a wreck with silver to legally tell the public you found " gold and silver".The gold is quite minimal, that's all I can say or if you prefer my "opinion". The silver is basically only worth it's bullion weight, hence them using the venturi (scars and scratches) instead of spending the extra cost for individual recovery. The real shipwreck industry is quite small with only a few key players, news travels quickly. As of now please feel free to believe that I am rambling on, I didn't intend to start arguments. Congrats go to the crew.

 

[rgecy]

No arguments here! I enjoy hearing a fresh opinion on this situation. The bottom line is, I guess we will only know truley when Odyssey decides to reveal it.

shpresearcher1, glad to have you aboard here at TNet and look forward to hearing more form you!

 

[shipresearcher1]

No arguments here! I enjoy hearing a fresh opinion on this situation. The bottom line is, I guess we will only know truley when Odyssey decides to reveal it.

shpresearcher1, glad to have you aboard here at TNet and look forward to hearing more form you!

Thank you very much!

 

[Salvor6]

Hey Shipresearcher1,
the Mercedes was found off the Dry Tortugas- not Iberia (Spain). It is believed to be part of the 1622 fleet (Atocha). Seahawk found it from Robert Marx's research (and a shrimpers hang site) and they recovered 22,000 artifacts worth $2 mil. Michaels Emeralds bought the whole lot and opened a museum.

I see the night owls are out!