Odyssey - HMS Sussex

[wreckdiver1715]

Gibraltar meeting discussed sovereignty question

12 June 2007


by Joe Garcia
PANORAMA confirms today from senior official sources in the UK that the controversy over HMS Sussex was discussed at the end of the tripartite meeting that took place in Gibraltar in March. The sovereignty of the waters where the wreck of the warship lies was an issue.

The discussions over the Sussex led to an unexpected delay in the talks. It will be recalled that the serious delay affected the head of the UK delegation Anthony Smith who had a plane to catch from Gibraltar back to London. Likewise, the head of the Spanish delegation Jose Pons was due to address a meeting of the Chamber of Commerce that same evening.

Meanwhile, the media also suffered the consequences of the delay.

Three days before the tripartite meeting, the Spanish foreign ministry had concluded a deal about Odyssey Marine Exploration, but this was not announced following a row between the Spanish culture ministry and the Spanish foreign ministry.

The Spanish culture ministry went to the extent of denying that they had given permission to the Odyssey Explorer to take part in activities, some of which would be on what they described as 'Spanish territorial waters'.

Their press release said: That is to say, the Ministry of culture has not authorized any operation of the company Odyssey Marine Exploration to recover the submerged remains of what could be the British vessel HMS Sussex.

They drew attention to the Junta de Andalucia being responsible for it.

However, the Spanish foreign ministry went on to release the text of the agreement about HMS Sussex but only following the conclusion of the tripartite talks in Gibraltar.

The agreement was between Spain and the UK to allow for an underwater survey for the identification of the wreck of HMS Sussex.

The survey was to take place in waters of the Alboran sea, said the agreement.And it went on:

This project, which will be carried out by the company Odyssey Marine Exploration, will follow rigorous archaeological protocols. The Junta de Andalucia will participate in it. Prior to the commencement of operations, a coordination meeting is scheduled for today between specialists nominated by the British Ministry of Defense and the Junta de Andalucia. Periodic coordination meetings are also scheduled to be held whilst the operations are being carried out. The Junta de Andalucia will name archaeologists to participate in said project. This participation by the Junta is intended to ensure that the project complies with all the applicable laws relating to the due protection of underwater cultural heritage.

The company Odyssey Marine Exploration, registered in the United States and having an exclusive contract with the Government of the United Kingdom for the archaeological project of the HMS Sussex, will carry out operations aimed at locating said shipwreck by virtue of the agreement reached.

In the event that it is proven that the ship is HMS Sussex, Spain will recognize that the wreck, its appurtenances and contents are the property of the United Kingdom by virtue of the rules of applicable International Law.

Oddysey themselves said that "the issuance of this release signals the public announcement of the conclusion to sensitive diplomatic negotiations that have been taking place since Odyssey suspended operations at the site."

With the more recent recovery of the treasure named 'Black Swan', it has been reaffirmed that the Spanish culture ministry has been taking a tougher line than the Spanish foreign ministry, It suggests that the Odyssey agreement which suffered a delay in being made public,must have been related to the inter-ministry row that has been going on in Spain. It touched on sovereignty.

The tripartite meeting in Gibraltar also suffered a delay which had not been expected. In fact, the media conference at the time suffered a one-hour delay, and when the chief minister finally spoke to the media, he said that the communique was being finalised...

There was no reference to the Sussex row in the final Tripartite communique at the time.

Yesterday, the agreement over Odyssey - which was made public after the Gibraltar trilateral meeting - was not on the website of the Spanish Foreign Ministry...

 

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[Salvor6]

SWR, if you have been following the news reports you would know that OMR's contract calls for them to get 80% of the first pile of coins they bring up.

 

[SaltyCracker]

Whichever way its one hell of a load of coins, right .. lucky buggers Slty

 

[ropesfish]

I am confused: Is salvage law distilling down to "If I lost it 400 years ago and have not recovered it...but you risk your money and your life to find and recover it...it's still mine."?
Taking this a step farther--could the descendants of the Incans, Mayans, and Aztecs file claims against the government of Spain for the recovery of gold, silver, gemstones and cultural items stolen from their ancestors?
I am not being facetious or sarcastic...at what point does one lose title to property? It seems like the more valuable the property, the longer the lifespan of the claims on said property.
Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[Darren in NC]

...at what point does one lose title to property?

The answer is directly proportionate to the gov't's benefiting from it

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Sharing Arrangements between the Government (UK), and Odyssey Marine

Odyssey and the Government (UK) have agreed upon the following sharing arrangements with respect to the aggregate amount of the appraised values and/or selling prices of the Artefacts, net of agreed selling expenses.
Range Government Odyssey
$0 - $45 million 20% 80%
$45 million to $500 million 50% 50%
Above $500 million 60% 40%


Once the aggregate amount of the appraised values for the artefacts and the net proceeds of any sales of artefacts exceed forty-five million dollars, Odyssey will be entitled to own and possess its relative share of the remaining artefacts.

If the aggregate amount of the appraised values for the artefacts and the net proceeds of any sales of artefacts exceed forty-five million dollars, the Parties will endeavor to formulate a joint marketing plan for the placement and sales of the remaining artefacts.

The Government shall at all time be considered the owner of the shipwreck


Tom

 

[FISHEYE]

I guess spain is sol on this one.im sure they are really happy about the uk gov getting what they want.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

More treasures expected

gibfocus - 19th June 2007
(2007-06-19 00:30:00 )

As the controversy over the 17 tonne treasure found by Odyssey Marine Exploration continues, with Spain calling on details of its location, reports this weekend that the agreement with the British authorities was likely to be terminated were dismissed.

Following a press statement by the British Embassy in Madrid reports have claimed that Odyssey's contract is under "continuous evaluation". This has been dismissed with experts indicating that the press statement merely stated that “the United Kingdom is confident its contract with Odyssey over the possible wreck of The Sussex requires the company to meet relevant international archaeological standards, but keeps this under continual review.”

One expert pointing out that it is the adherence to international archaeological standards that are reviewed. Further pointing out that from the very initial stages the company has itself highlighted that the treasure recovered was done in, as they described it, “conformity with Salvage Law and the Law of the Sea Convention.”

The location of the shipwreck has, nevertheless, remained a secret with wide media speculation over its actual location adding to the mystery.

Whilst initial reports on the day of the finding placed the treasure at some 40 miles from the British Coastline, in the area of Lands End, the company has itself not given any specific location for its whereabouts.

The only real indications that have been given has been that it is located “beyond the territorial waters or legal jurisdiction of any country.” Having further added during its announcement that “the Company does not believe that the recovery is subject to sovereign immunity by any nation pursuant to the Law of the Sea Convention.”

The speculation over the location of the shipwreck has raised much speculation over the whereabouts of the shipwreck. This further accentuated by Spain’s threats to arrest the vessels due to its belief that it has been operating within its waters.

Although the location of the vessels has not been publicly given, the company has, nevertheless, since last year, made public details which suggest that up to three other shipwrecks, other than the HMS Sussex were being worked on. Further reducing any doubts the actual 17 tonnes treasure might have come from that same shipwreck. The fact the latest finding is claimed to have been in the Atlantic, other than the Alboran, which is where HMS Sussex is believed to be, further adding to the mystery over both the location and the name of the vessel found.

Official records show that Odyssey filed a shipwreck arrest in the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida in September 2006. On October 11 2007, the U.S. Magistrate recommended that Odyssey's Motion for Order Granting Preliminary Injunctive Relief be granted, giving the company exclusive Salvor-in-Possession status and prohibiting any interference with Odyssey's intended excavation of the site, believed to be a 17th Century Merchant vessel which is located outside the territorial waters of any country.

In May of this year Odyssey obtained a default judgment on Admiralty Arrest for the shipwreck.

On the 16th May Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. announced that it had received a default judgment from the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida on the admiralty arrest complaint filed by the Company with the court in September 2006. This default judgment granted Odyssey all requests in the original complaint, including sole and exclusive ownership of the shipwreck site, believed to be the remains of a Colonial period shipwreck located in the Atlantic Ocean outside the territorial waters of any nation. This is believed to be the shipwreck in which the 17 tonne treasure was found.

Further official publications also show that on April 9, 2007, Odyssey filed Admiralty arrests in the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida on two sites, one in the Atlantic Ocean and one in the western Mediterranean.

In its Sec Filings the company states that it “plans to conduct additional work on both sites. Until additional ROV surveys and further exploration can be completed, the Company is not prepared to confirm the identities of either site.”

Its filings before the Securities and Exchange also stating that “in addition to the Sussex project, the company has now arrested three sites (the first of which was arrested in the fall of 2006) that require more extensive ROV operations. Our upcoming operational schedules will be developed to most efficiently utilize the Company’s marine assets for further investigation and/or excavation of these sites, taking into account weather, legal and political issues as well as other operational factors.”

Their comments within the Sec Filings highlighting that the two remaining arrests had as yet not been completed, whilst also emphasizing that operations other than the search for HMS Sussex were also being undertaken beyond the Spanish coastline whilst still operating in the region.


The Tampa Bay Business Journal at the time of the finding being announced reported that the treasure came from a wreck some 40 miles from Lands End near the English Channel, “according to court documents.”

In the same publication it also claimed that the other two filed arrest claims were for one about 100 miles west of Gibraltar and the other about 65 miles east of Sardinia in the Mediterranean Sea. The court at the time of finding the 17 tonne treasure not having yet ruled on Odyssey's rights to these two wrecks.

Their report before the Security and Exchange Commission also provided an operational update which further highlighted how in order to protect the identities of the targets of their planned search or recovery operations, in some cases they would defer disclosing specific information relating to projects until they had located the targeted shipwreck or shipwrecks and determined a course of action to protect their property rights claim over the shipwrecks. In addition the company stated that it has an exclusive partnering agreement with the Government of the United Kingdom for the archaeological excavation of HMS Sussex , a large British warship that sank in 1694, and which, they themselves stated “remains the property of the United Kingdom.”

Their statement also providing some indication of the location of HMS Sussex as they indicated that the Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued a press release to announce agreement between Spain and the United Kingdom for Odyssey to proceed with the “Alboran project,” which includes preliminary phases of excavation and identification of the site believed to be the Sussex as well as a survey of the area in which the shipwreck lies.

The main controversy over their own statement coming as they indicated that they had also agreed to provide information relative to other shipwrecks in the surrounding area to the Spanish Government to assist in their protection and preservation. Something which is presently being debated as Spain claims that the latest findings is within their own waters.


http://www.gibfocus.gi/details_headlines.php?id=1425

 

[hmmm]

Could it be possible, that the treasure was actually found in a country's waters and that country was tipped off about the theft. maybe that country who had jurisdiction over the treasure, tipped off the Spanish gov, who was then spying on the odyssey. when the treasure landed in Miami , they confiscated it and the ships involved. just a thought, any one know Ireland's laws of salvage. $500,000,000 is a lot of money.

 

[Amona]

Could it be possible, that the treasure was actually found in a country's waters and that country was tipped off about the theft. maybe that country who had jurisdiction over the treasure, tipped off the Spanish gov, who was then spying on the odyssey. when the treasure landed in Miami , they confiscated it and the ships involved. just a thought, any one know Ireland's laws of salvage. $500,000,000 is a lot of money

Anything is possible, the true is, the way it was worked to remove $500Millions from "spain's water" or "INTERNATIONAL WATER"? it wasn't the correct way, I would say, "still today, the spirit of Drake, Blackbeard,Kidd and Henry Jennings Live among us."

In the past, steal gold from South America was legal, today, those treasures are considerated patrimony because has history to tell, but for pirates, they don't care about it.

Amona

 

[jeff of pa]

I don't know why anyone assumes Odyssey is Lying.

 

[Amona]

SWR, Jeff

I'm cool!
Amona

 

[malady]

I dont think Odyssey is lying. I hope they can keep 100% of it.
malady

 

[jeff k]

Jeff... The only lies I've seen were in the Spanish press, and boy can they lie with the best of them.

 

[ivan salis]

the sussex was a british "military" ship thus by international law totally under british control---spain must allow britian to salvage the "english" wreck under international law even if its in their waters-----british salvage laws are very nice to salvors--- in effect they are normally 75% for the salvors---25% to govt----Ivan

 

[diverlynn]

Jeff K,
If you know Dan Bagley, a consultant for Odyssey, tell him Lynn, formally of FRRG said "Hi". Nice guy, met him at a couple of meetings with FRRG. I had been invited to go over and tour the Odyssey headquarters. Would still like to do that if possible, Heard it was some set-up.
diverlynn

 

[jeff k]

Lynn... I never met Dan, and didn't know he was involved with Odyssey until recently. If I ever do meet him, I'll pass on your regards.

 

[jeff k]

St. Pete Times Article...

http://www.sptimes.com:80/2007/06/22/Business/Odyssey_hunts_more_tr.shtml

 

[wreckdiver1715]

For all my friends following the exploits of Odyssey Marine, your going to enjoy this latest news.

USA. Volvo Car Corporation & Odyssey Marine Exploration get embroiled in real life pirate adventure
Saturday, 23 June 2007



In a twist worthy of any great pirate story, Volvo Car Corporation today upped anchor, at least temporarily, on the last crucial leg of its global online treasure hunt: the retrieval of a prize treasure chest filled with $50,000 in gold and a key to a new Volvo from the sea floor. The retrieval of the chest will hang in the balance until controversy dies down over the discovery of real life treasure by Volvo's Hunt partner, Odyssey Marine Exploration.

Earlier this year, Volvo selected Odyssey, the world leader in deep-ocean shipwreck exploration, to sink a treasure chest with one goal: to create an authentic, exciting treasure hunt to promote Disney's 'Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End.' Veiled in secrecy, Odyssey scouted locations in the Western Mediterranean, finally zeroing in on a perfect spot off the coast of Gibraltar. They had planned to take the winner of The Hunt, 23-year-old Alena Zvereva from Ekaterinburg, Russia, out to retrieve the treasure from its secret location when the operation hit an unprecedented snag: Odyssey found real treasure. And a media storm ensued.

"We thought sinking a real treasure chest, filled with $50,000 in gold doubloons and a key to a new Volvo, and creating a global treasure hunt for 22 markets was challenging," said Linda Gangeri, national advertising manager, Volvo Cars of North America. "But that was, quite literally, a drop in the ocean compared to the storm our attempted retrieval process has stirred up."

While thousands of would-be treasure hunters from around the globe battled it out to find Volvo's prize booty, Odyssey struck gold and silver of their own in the Atlantic Ocean with the discovery of an estimated $500 million in coins from a deep ocean site the company has now code-named the 'Black Swan.'

As soon as the discovery was made public, having been spotted depositing Volvo's treasure in an entirely different area, questions started circulating as to the real provenance of the 'Black Swan.' Was it a Spanish shipwreck? Had Odyssey been working on shipwrecks in Spanish waters? Unable to reveal the exact location of the 'Black Swan,' in the Atlantic Ocean because of obvious security reasons, and under a non-disclosure agreement with Volvo to protect the location of its treasure chest, Odyssey found itself in the eye of a media storm that has yet to abate. Reports have been widely circulated that a court in the Spanish coastal town of La Linea has issued an order for the Spanish Guardia Civil to detain any Odyssey vessel should it leave the port of Gibraltar, putting Volvo's retrieval plans on hold.

"When we discovered the 'Black Swan,' international interest in the find was amazing," said Greg Stemm, real-life shipwreck explorer and co-founder of Odyssey. "Even though we have been very clear that it's in the Atlantic Ocean, outside any country's territorial waters, when Spanish authorities saw that we'd been out near Gibraltar in March, some unfortunately jumped to the wrong conclusion. Until very recently, we were contractually bound not to reveal our arrangement with Volvo, so without a real explanation of why we had deep-sea exploration equipment out there, it's easy to see how imaginations could run wild."

Whatever happens, Zvereva will receive $50,000 and a new Volvo XC70. Volvo, however, is not giving up on its retrieval plans yet and is committed to exploring every avenue possible to reclaim the chest from its watery depths.

"We wanted an adventure, and we certainly got one," said Gangeri. "Real- life shipwreck exploration is uncharted waters for us, and Odyssey did warn us that you never know what will happen out on the high seas. They have been an excellent partner throughout all this, and they helped make this contest one of the most authentic, exciting promotions of the year. Now, pirate story or not, we're putting everything we have toward raising a thrilling -- and happy -- ending."

About the Hunt

The wildly popular Hunt, a month-long multi-media campaign developed as part of Volvo's promotion of the theatrical release of Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, attracted more than 32,000 online contestants from 22 markets around the world. Participants solved a series of puzzles that led to a semi-final puzzle, Puzzle 21: World's End, posted May 31. The first contestant from each country to submit the correct answer then went on to compete in one final online puzzle to decide the winner. All participating markets were represented in the final with the exception of Italy, who didn't have a participant submit a correct semi-final answer within the time limit.

Finalists were Andreas Aigner, Austria; Konstantin Popov, Bulgaria; Erin Chock, Canada; Dennis Leifheit, Germany; Cheuk Fung Leung, Hong Kong; Andreas, Indonesia; Yukio Takai, Japan; Siew Hang Teh, Malaysia; Patricia Gabriela Medrano Picon, Mexico; Liss Johansen, Norway; Aaron Joseph N. David, Philippines; Jarosaw Nowakowski, Poland; Ciprian Constantin Grosu, Romania; Alena Zvereva, Russia; Wilson Teo, Singapore; Jungtae Ahn, South Korea; Maria Qvick Faxa, Sweden; Shih-En Chen, Taiwan; Geranun Jiraboonyanon, Thailand; Karyn Burgess, United Kingdom; and Deborah LaValley, United States.

 

[jeff of pa]

LOL Tom.

Great One, I love it