This weeks dose of self-righteousness

piratediver

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Jun 29, 2006
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This week's dose of self-righteousness

Just when you thought it was safe to dive for treasure again comes this from Archaeology Magazine, seems they time them to coincide with great discoveries from us archaeological
infidels!


Pirate diver.



Saving History for the Public June 15, 2007
by James Delgado

Glorifying treasure hunters and denigrating archaeologists is a poor apology for the destruction of our underwater heritage.

In a June 8 New York Times Op-Ed piece, Robert Kurson, author of the popular book Shadow Divers, attacks archaeologists as pirates, calling us a "new breed of raiders." By contrast, he praises treasure hunters: "Without them...many of these wrecks would stay lost forever. Without the lure of a big and romantic payoff, no one would even look." Moreover, Kurson paints archaeologists as ivory-tower academics and the treasure hunters as larger-than-life men-of-action: "it's a good bet that a grizzled, lifelong salvage diver has better real-life, tight-squeeze shipwreck experience than an archaeologist who writes up guidelines for this work from his office near the student union." This is a response from a grizzled lifelong archaeologist who has plenty of real-life, tight-squeeze experiences, as do many of my colleagues.



Working with the Estonian National Maritime Museum and a firm of commercial divers and volunteers, archaeologist James Delgado surfaces after a dive to the wreck of Russalka, an 1867 Russian ironclad warship in the Baltic. (James Delgado)
The recent controversy over the discovery of the "Black Swan" treasure off the coast of England by the company Odyssey Marine has ignited more than just a debate between scholars and treasure hunters. The key question of who owns the treasure has involved diplomats and lawyers, led to legal action, and a stand off at Gibraltar that has stoked longstanding tensions between Spain and Great Britain. Lost in the rhetoric of these battles is the question of the relevance of the archaeologists' arguments. Whether Odyssey Marine is doing careful work that meets archaeological standards remains unknown. Secrecy shrouds the site and their work. Under that cone of silence, a treasure was raised and brought to the United States.

The reaction from the government of Spain may prove far more serious for Odyssey than the concerns of archaeologists, but while diplomats caucus and op-ed writers throw mud, it is worth looking at those concerns. They are based on decades of experience with other treasure hunters, and hundreds of sites that have been torn apart, with the finds scattered. In nearly all of those cases, the stake has not been half a million coins or heaps of gold—such finds are very rare—but rather wrecks bearing fragile traces of the past.

Next year, a major new exhibition will open at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York. At the heart of the exhibition are treasures from the world's oldest shipwreck, a vessel found off the coast of Uluburun, Turkey. That exhibition, on international trade and cultural exchange in the Bronze Age, will transport visitors back to a period that witnessed the Trojan War and the reign of Egypt's fabled King Tut. These were times of strife, as kingdoms rose and fell and legends and history were made.

Dating from the 14th century B.C., the Uluburun wreck carried a royal cargo of tribute from one ancient ruler to another. Its treasures, spilled into the sea 3,300 years ago, included raw glass, ebony and ivory, gold, copper ingots, ceramics, amber, and resin. After 11,000 hours of diving and careful recovery, archaeologists from the Institute of Nautical Archaeology were able to map where everything lay and put the wreck back together. That mapping sorted out the difference between cargo and the crew's personal effects. It also revealed the delicate remains of the last day in the life of that ship and the people on board. Had treasure hunters found the Uluburun wreck that history would have been completely lost.

Thanks to the archaeologists, scientists, curators, and historians, the world not only gained a first-hand look at the lost and forgotten treasure, but also a new appreciation of how ancient people had interacted and traded, even in times of conflict and suspicion. Trade goods from a dozen different cultures lay scattered on the seabed. The remains represented cargo from the Middle East, Cyprus, and the Baltic, among other places, that had been gathered and was on its way to a palace in what is today Turkey when the sea swallowed them. Some have suggested that the cargo was a gift from Egypt's famed beauty, Queen Nefertiti, to buy support after her husband, the pharaoh Akhenaten had died and she was seeking a foreign prince as a husband to become the new pharaoh and to keep her on the throne. Instead, she disappeared from history, and the boy king, Tutankhamen, took the throne, only to die under suspicious circumstances at a young age.

This fantastic story was almost lost to history. When first discovered, the copper ingots scattered on the seabed were clues to what lay below. The Turkish sponge diver who found the wreck could have turned the site over to salvagers who would have stripped it of the ingots, melted them down for a few dollars, and history would have been the poorer. Instead, archaeologists from the Institute of Nautical Archaeology recovered the treasure, and for decades it has been the centerpiece of Turkey's most popular archaeological museum in Bodrum, visited by millions. Now those treasures are coming to America, and to New York where they will be seen and appreciated by everyone who visits the temporary exhibition at the Met.

Another wreck will not be the subject of an exhibition. The U.S. Navy's brig of war Somers was the scene of the Navy's only mutiny at sea, an 1842 event that spurred the hanging of three men, one of them the 19-year-old son of the Secretary of War. The "Somers affair" ultimately inspired Herman Melville to write Billy Budd. The wreck, when discovered in 1990 off the coast of Mexico, lay where it had sunk in 1847. The action of the sea had eaten much of the wood when we dived on it, but everything else lay exactly where it had come to rest a century and a half earlier. Our careful mapping started to reconstruct the ship, but on a return dive, we found that treasure hunters had stripped it to sell the artifacts of a famous ship on the black market. While not as ancient as the Uluburun wreck, the wreck of the Somers was a link to the past that a handful will now enjoy, rather than millions.

The discovery of the Uluburun shipwreck is not unique. There are hundreds of other examples from all over the world. Incredible discoveries are made constantly by grizzled and young archaeologists who scour the seven seas with magnetometers, stand long watches at sea, and dive down to carefully do their work and recover history. Archaeologists have been at sea searching for wrecks for nearly 50 years, using the same techniques and tools—in fact, most of the technologies and techniques for finding and excavating wrecks were developed for archaeological projects, including deep-water work. Last week, in relative media silence while Odyssey dominated the news, a team from Texas A&M University and the Institute of Nautical Archaeology conducted a deep-water examination and test excavation in the Gulf of Mexico on a 200-year-old wreck. Contrary to Robert Kurson's New York Times piece, treasure hunters are not the only ones with the tools or the interest to work in the deep.

Rather than write policy documents by the student union, as Kurson claims, like my colleagues I have "swam the swim" to work on and under the water. I have taken off my air tanks to squeeze into a toppled tank off the beaches of Normandy, and wriggled into rusting wrecks in danger of collapse to come back with photographs of forgotten history. I have worked on the sea with "wreck detectives," anglers, tipsters, amateur historians, and serious wreck divers who share the passion, including one of the divers who found the lost U-Boat evocatively written about by Kurson. Our fellow divers are not the problem. The issue is one where the flash of gold and silver obscure or overwhelm the type of careful work that yields treasures of a different sort, like that of the Uluburun shipwreck or the Somers.

We base our opposition to treasure hunting on the track record of those years of lost opportunities and lost history, and the challenge we issue to Odyssey is to show how they are different. We curators and archaeologists work long hours on the sea and beneath it as much as in the lab, and many of us do what we do without tax dollars, but with the support of public-minded philanthropists. Their support comes without the expectations of investors, many of whom we have found seek a "cost-effective" dismantling of a site and quick return, not the recovery and treatment and preservation of everything, which is what we do. We share what we find in a variety of ways, but in the end, for us the lure and romance—the "payoff" is the "oh and ah" when they read the magazine article or popular book, watch our work on television, or walk into an exhibition like that coming to the Met and see it all, its stories being told, instead of a single piece on an investor's mantelpiece.

James Delgado is the executive director of the Institute of Nautical Archaeology at Texas A&M University. A contributing editor to ARCHAEOLOGY magazine, he is also host of National Geographic Television's "The Sea Hunters" and the author of 30 books on shipwrecks, history and archaeology, including three books for children.
 

Peg Leg

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May 29, 2006
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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

What really pisses off these people is that THEY cannot get the Grant Money and THEY cannot enhance their own collection of artifacts.
There is so many artifacts sitting in boxes in the basements of Museums and other collection points like the College where this person works that THEY have no idea what is there
You can ask THESE people WHY DO THEY HAVE A BETTER COLLECTION of ARTIFACTS than the MUSEUMS they SOMETIMES WORK FOR?
Most of the time THEY will not answer you and chances are you will never see WHAT is in THEIR collection.
What a bunch of CRAP.
Peg Leg
 

BobE

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May 15, 2007
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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

Mr. James Delgado,
In response to your article Saving History for the Public in the June 15, 2007 ARCHAEOLOGY magazine, I think Robert F. Marx says it best and puts the problem in the proper perspective.


"The irony is that every time someone finds and salvages an old shipwreck, archaeologists scream their heads off and accuse the divers and salvors of looting and obliterating an underwater site.
Yet about the hundreds of shipwrecks lost each year through dredging and landfill, there has been no such outcry." Robert F. Marx May 2004








Appeared in Diver May 2004


BURIED TREASURE
While we fuss about petty interference with wreck sites, the world's underwater heritage is being run down on a massive scale - and with official sanction. That's what infuriates famed treasure-hunter Bob Marx


THE VAST, STILL UNFATHOMED STOREHOUSE of sunken ships and cities throughout the world offers a unique opportunity to the archaeologist.
Underwater sites are generally less disturbed than those on land. With the exception of Pompeii and Herculaneum, which were entombed in a fiery flood of lava, land sites typically present stratum after stratum of occupation. They may span thousands of years, with artefacts from one period mixed in with others, making the work of the archaeologist very difficult.
This is generally not the difficulty with underwater sites, which are time-capsules that cover a particular moment in history.
The problem that confronts archaeologists is the accelerating pace at which sites are now being destroyed. As bulldozers scar millions of hectares each year, and whole valleys are inundated for reservoirs and lakes, irreplaceable opportunities to unravel the past are lost.
Man is indeed Earth's most destructive force, but until recently most of his depredations were confined to land.
Today, however, he dredges and fills and destroys vast areas of the sea floor.
Although a few sport divers and commercial divers are responsible for destroying a small number of underwater sites of archaeological significance, this is a drop in a bucket compared to the number of sites destroyed by dredging, or covered over by landfill operations.
The irony is that every time someone finds and salvages an old shipwreck, archaeologists scream their heads off and accuse the divers and salvors of looting and obliterating an underwater site.
Yet about the hundreds of shipwrecks lost each year through dredging and landfill, there has been no such outcry.
Cadiz, on the south coast of Spain, was an important seaport in continual use for at least 3000 years. Beneath its waters lie hundreds of shipwrecks of various nationalities and historical periods.
Under the auspices of the Archaeological Museum of Cadiz, I conducted a visual survey with the help of local divers for two years from 1960. Within a 2 mile radius of the main port we located 54 classical period (Phoenician, Greek and Roman) shipwrecks and 97 of later periods.
Backed by UNESCO, I returned in 1985 to find that, because of intense dredging and landfill operations, more than two-thirds of these sites had been obliterated. I doubt whether even 5% of those wrecks still exist.
Despite an intensive campaign which I launched in 1991, nothing was ever done by the Spanish government to protect what little remains in Cadiz Bay.
In neighbouring Portugal, the situation is equally grave. During the construction of a deepwater port at Sines, a port first used by the Carthaginians and later by the Romans, dredging operations destroyed dozens of ancient shipwrecks.
Just three years ago, the Portuguese government permitted the construction of a marina at Angra on Terceira Island in the Azores. Five 16th and 17th century wrecks were known to be there, yet they decided that the new marina was more important than saving these important shipwrecks.
Half a world away in Japan, I recently faced the same problem. I was hired by the Osaka Maritime Museum to locate and excavate three Portuguese East Indiaman known to be lost at Nagasaki, the main trading port between the Japanese and the outside world during the Colonial Period.
On arriving, I nearly had a heart attack when I found the old port covered over by landfill and a huge parking lot.
Instead of allowing recovery operations on shipwrecks all over the world, most bureaucrats and archaeologists say: "The ships have been down there for centuries, so why worry about them now?"
The answer for these idiots is that we should save what we can before there is nothing left.
Spain can now claim all Spanish wrecks worldwide over 50 years of age. Soon after this decision was made by the International Court in the Hague, Chile, Peru, Ecuador, Colombia, Guatemala and Mexico joined forces and demanded that the decision be changed.
They agreed that Spain might have a valid claim on the ships, but not on the cargoes, as all the gold, silver, pearls and precious stones were seized from their nations by the Spaniards using local slave labour. But the International Court ruled in favour of Spain once again, and the original law stands.
Last year a group of salvors found a 17th century Spanish galleon off the Florida Keys, and soon afterwards the Spanish government contacted the US State Department for assistance. They stopped the salvage and the US Coast Guard is guarding the site to prevent the salvors and others recovering the contents of the shipwrecks.
The result of all this? Forcing salvors to go underground, plunder shipwrecks and sell their finds in secret.
 

Salvor6

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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

Great article BobE and let me say that James Delgado has stretched the truth just like he acuses the treasure hunters of doing. Why isn't the "Uluburun" shipwreck a household name like the "Black Swan" or the "Titanic?" Who Cares? No one will visit that display. James took his tank off to swim through wreckage at Normandy Beach in 6' deep water, not 360' deep water like John Chatterton did through a U-Boat! the Greek sponge diver turned in artifacts in yet archaeologists know of Honduran divers that turned BRONZE CANNONS in, and they won't do anything about it! Look at the facts. This is just a cheesey response to the N.Y. Times article by Robert Kurson. Decide for yourself and sort out the propaganda!
 

Nov 8, 2004
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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

Gentlemen: Speaking of land recoveries and the various agencies, I have found and own Tayopa. This was a Jesuit mining operation that was lost in the general Indian uprising about 1630. it was in bonanza.

It has been intensively searched for ever since with many dying in the search. Since I have never actually gone openly public, there are expeditons being made up even today to look for it.

Over the years Tayopa has been relegated to a beautiful legend status, nothing more. Even the Jesuits deny having ever worked it which only adds to the confusion.

I started the search in 1958. It has been a long one with many frustrations and expenses along the way.

There is, nor has there been , any Archaeological interest in discovering a long lost legend such as this.

I have succeeded where countless others have failed through the centuries. Am I simply supposed to turn this over in it's entirety with no financial gain, just possibly a bit of temp fame?

If this is the present trend of thinking, then an infinite no of other Archaeological sites, both in the seas and land, will never be found after the last clues are gone. Who will dedicate years of their lives and resources to look for them, and why?

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

mariner

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The fact is that this is not a black and white issue. If somebody finds a rich treasure ship, wouldn't it be better for that person or group to reinvest some of the profit into a thorough and proper archaeological excavation of the wreck, instead of just pulling out the treasure? Odyssey have said several times that they intend to use the highest standards of underwater archaeology in examining and recovering the Sussex, yet the way they acted in just pulling the coins out of the so-called Black Swan wreck makes their fine words look a little hollow. No wonder Spain and Andalusia want to ensure that the Sussex is recovered and documented in an appropriate way.

I know Jim Delgado personally, and agree with him that wrecks ought to be properly documented and recovered using stringent archaeological techniques. Talk is that the Sussex is worth several billion dollars. If so, then there is no reasonable argument against re-investing a proportion of it in proper archaeology, with Odyssey and the UK Government sharing the cost in the same proportion as they share the benefits, say.

If treasure hunters/salvage companies do not reinvest some of their profits in proper documentation and archaeological excavation of the wrecks, then there will continue to be a divide between them and the archaeological "establishment". On the other hand, the archaeological establishment needs to abandon its current position that no recovery involving profit is acceptable. There are lots of areas to be debated, of course, like exactly how much of the wreck itself should be recovered and conserved, but once both sides start talking to each other, I think they will find that they have more in common than divides them, and that they have a mutual interest in finding ways of working together.

Just my opinion, as our old friend Cornelius (still missed) used to say.

Mariner
 

Salvor6

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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

Hey Don Jose, if you really did find Tayopa (and I believe you) then why don't you recover some of the artifacts and open a museum?
 

Nov 8, 2004
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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

hi My friend Salvor: low key, low key, until the final permits are issued and in my little hot hands heheheh.

Seriously, I have absolutely no objections to a serious archaeological operation, I only wish to have some of the "duplicate" archaeological finds, data, as well as a fair share of the bars. I think that this is only reasonable, considering that I have around 50 years invested in the research and lost wages or earnings. Since only I know where the other 4 are, I will wait to see what happens before I reveal their locations.

No co-operation, the data goes with me to the grave - sorry archaeologists and gov't tax collectors..

La Tarasca
Las Pimas
La Gloria Pan
Tepoca

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Peg Leg

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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

mariner said:
The fact is that this is not a black and white issue. If somebody finds a rich treasure ship, wouldn't it be better for that person or group to reinvest some of the profit into a thorough and proper archaeological excavation of the wreck, instead of just pulling out the treasure? Odyssey have said several times that they intend to use the highest standards of underwater archaeology in examining and recovering the Sussex, yet the way they acted in just pulling the coins out of the so-called Black Swan wreck makes their fine words look a little hollow. No wonder Spain and Andalusia want to ensure that the Sussex is recovered and documented in an appropriate way.

I know Jim Delgado personally, and agree with him that wrecks ought to be properly documented and recovered using stringent archaeological techniques. Talk is that the Sussex is worth several billion dollars. If so, then there is no reasonable argument against re-investing a proportion of it in proper archaeology, with Odyssey and the UK Government sharing the cost in the same proportion as they share the benefits, say.

If treasure hunters/salvage companies do not reinvest some of their profits in proper documentation and archaeological excavation of the wrecks, then there will continue to be a divide between them and the archaeological "establishment". On the other hand, the archaeological establishment needs to abandon its current position that no recovery involving profit is acceptable. There are lots of areas to be debated, of course, like exactly how much of the wreck itself should be recovered and conserved, but once both sides start talking to each other, I think they will find that they have more in common than divides them, and that they have a mutual interest in finding ways of working together.

Just my opinion, as our old friend Cornelius (still missed) used to say.

Mariner
What bunch of horse CRAP.
How many of you have ever been to a FEE MUSEUM.
There AIN'T any that I know of.
They MUST charge $$$ just to maintain the Museum and to pay for all the ARTEFACTS they have ACQUIRED (STOLEN) and of course do not forget the HIGH SALARIES these curators make.
Peg Leg
 

Darren in NC

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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

I guess we can all be self-righteous a bit, eh? Why do we have to hang on the extremes of either side of the pendulum? We need both responsible salvagers and open-mined archaeologists. It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. They can (and do) work together everyday.
 

jeff k

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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

"Odyssey have said several times that they intend to use the highest standards of underwater archaeology in examining and recovering the Sussex, yet the way they acted in just pulling the coins out of the so-called Black Swan wreck makes their fine words look a little hollow."

Mariner... They may sound hollow to you now, but I'd wait until you know the whole story before passing judgement. The underwater video should be very interesting.
 

wreckdiver1715

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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

Jeff K, you are so on the money. Everyone is just assuming everything at this point, and they are making assumptions that just because Odyssey arrested a new wreck one day, and a few days later they are loading 17 Tones of treasure on a plane back to the states, that these two events are some how connected.
Everyone needs to remember that Odyssey has been working out of Gibraltar for several years now, and has been doing what they do best, hunting for treasure ships.
Does anyone seriously think for a minute that while Spain has been delaying the recovery of the HMS Sussex month after long month, and year after year, that the Odyssey folks have been out sightseeing. Not likely, they have located dozens of potential wreck sites, and arrested a couple of them along the way, and it would also appear that they have found at least one good one! I for one think that they have been working the "Black Swan" wreck in secret for some time now, and have no doubt that they worked it legally and did it within accepted archaeological guidelines.
Darren in NC, You nailed it my friend. However, both sides are firmly entrenched. Respectable salvers are using archaeologist. However, the establishment archies fail to publicly recognise this, and will not rest until Treasure Hunters are banned from the planet and relegated to the pages of history as modern day pirates.


Tom
 

wreckdiver1715

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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

SWR, how do you figure OMR gave the stockholders a stiff one, providing it was a wreck arrested in 2006? It's not like they have had the treasure in the ships hold since 06. I'm just not seeing what you are eluding to! Please elaborate for me.

Tom
 

Darren in NC

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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

wreckdiver1715 said:
Darren in NC, You nailed it my friend. However, both sides are firmly entrenched. Respectable salvers are using archaeologist. However, the establishment archies fail to publicly recognise this, and will not rest until Treasure Hunters are banned from the planet and relegated to the pages of history as modern day pirates.

I agree, Tom. We definitely need to keep an eye on Capital Hill in lieu of any changes in law - and have a voice. But like most establishments, these archies write articles to each other in chosen ignorance and from an arrogant ivory tower. Boxes and crates of artifacts stored in a warehouse with no climate control is just as sad as a salvor ripping apart a historical wreck to get treasure. Again, these are both extremes and as long as we can work with those in the middle, we'll move forward for the advantage of all. As far as being labeled a modern day pirate? arrggh! ;)
 

mariner

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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

[/quote]
What bunch of horse CRAP.
How many of you have ever been to a FEE MUSEUM.
There AIN'T any that I know of.
They MUST charge $$$ just to maintain the Museum and to pay for all the ARTEFACTS they have ACQUIRED (STOLEN) and of course do not forget the HIGH SALARIES these curators make.
Peg Leg
[/quote]

PegLeg

How eloquent, as usual. So you believe that treasure hunters should just grab the loot and have no responsibility for documenting the wreck, or put any of their profits into having it properly excavated?

It's that kind of attitude that has got THing such a bad name to date, and will continue to do so in the future. It's sad.

Mariner
 

mariner

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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

Jeff K said:
"Odyssey have said several times that they intend to use the highest standards of underwater archaeology in examining and recovering the Sussex, yet the way they acted in just pulling the coins out of the so-called Black Swan wreck makes their fine words look a little hollow."

Mariner... They may sound hollow to you now, but I'd wait until you know the whole story before passing judgement. The underwater video should be very interesting.


Jeff,

I hope you are right. I have been a great admirer of Odyssey until this latest incident.

Mariner
 

Peg Leg

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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

Mariner,
I did not say this.
What I am saying is why do these so called RIGHTOUS PEOPLE STEAL FROM GRAVESITES all over the world and then make a World Tour of the artifacts that were removed from these Grave sites.
They charge a pretty penny to anyone that wants to come and see what they have stolen
To me a Treasure Hunter is just that a TREASURE HUNTER. As we all know THing is very expensive and dangerous.
I doubt that there is a single artifact that has ever been recovered from the sea without first being located by a THer.
What is needed is some kind of CONTRACT to where the THer gets 50% of EVERYTHING HE/SHE RECOVERS-PERIOD.
Yes the are a good number of Pirates in this world but there are a good number of PIRATE Countries. These countries TAKE and TAKE and TAKE but only after treasure has been found and recovered and when they started looking at the $$$ then they want it all.
I ain't gonna happen.
Peg Leg
 

jeff k

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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

Ticket prices are $3 for MOSI members, so you'd be better off getting a family membership for $99.
 

Peg Leg

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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

Just think it only cost $5.00 a person to come to the EXPO and children under 10 are FREE and those in Military Uniform are also FREE.
Of course there will not be MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars worth treasure to be seen.
But it will be FUN meeting all the people.
Peg Leg
 

jeff k

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Re: This week's dose of self-righteousness

The membership is good for a year, so you could go back several times at minimal prices. Then you wouldn't have anything to complain about. :(
 

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