Perdido bay Shipwreck

[ivan salis]

the wreck might be the "hercules" noted in the frenchmans book as having "struck" near santa rosa island (possible on the outside or crossing the "bar" area near the fort)--- wreckers looked for anything of value be it treasure or just ships rigging and gear which could be "sold" second hand for a profit---so it did not have to be a ultra high value to interest a "wrecker" of course a big "money ship" were the ones that they really wanted badly ---just like we do--- Ivan

 

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[pcolaboy]

the wreck might be the "hercules" noted in the frenchmans book as having "struck" near santa rosa island (possible on the outside or crossing the "bar" area near the fort)--- wreckers looked for anything of value be it treasure or just ships rigging and gear which could be "sold" second hand for a profit---so it did not have to be a ultra high value to interest a "wrecker" of course a big "money ship" were the ones that they really wanted badly ---just like we do--- Ivan

The Hercules never wrecked here. The log entry mentioned that Le Hercules "touched" bottom as it crossed the bar but it never stranded. The water across Pensacola Bar at that time was 21 feet. Le Hercules' draft was 20 feet which tells me it could have simply been in the trough of swells when it touched. This ship safely returned to its base at Dauphin Island after this particular Pensacola campaign. There are absolutely no natural rocks or hard coral reef anywhere near Pensacola Bay or Pensacola Pass - I don't care what this Frenchie says. In fact, you have to go nearly 10 miles offshore into the gulf before you will find any limestone outcroppings. I do know, however, that the Spanish maps of this period do contain detailed soundings and bottom composition symbols - none of which ever indicated rock.

Pcola

 

[G.I.B.]

Dang Pcolaboy, sorry to hear about the gas shortage. It's amazing that the witness watched the theft, but never flagged down a cop or dialed 911.

So then, I'll wait until you take out a third mortgage and buy some gas before running the side scan.

I've been reading quite a lot lately and I've found numerous accounts of wrecks being stripped. The 'survivors' would trade rigging for passage, Indians would come and get it, other shipwreck survivors would tear it down and build a smaller boat with the parts. (Unlike Gilligan and the Skipper) The parts didn't sit idle for very long if they were above the water line. I don't think this is the one that was 'Cast away' up the river. It's a cool find tho.

Just as a side note I thought you might enjoy an excerpt from a passage I'm reading. What a fun group of guys.

 

[pcolaboy]

.....I've been reading quite a lot lately and I've found numerous accounts of wrecks being stripped. The 'survivors' would trade rigging for passage, Indians would come and get it, other shipwreck survivors would tear it down and build a smaller boat with the parts. (Unlike Gilligan and the Skipper) The parts didn't sit idle for very long if they were above the water line. I don't think this is the one that was 'Cast away' up the river. It's a cool find tho.

Just as a side note I thought you might enjoy an excerpt from a passage I'm reading. What a fun group of guys.

I have no doubts that this is an entirely different wreck. This was just one of the many scores of marine casualties along our coastline. I'm really starting to have doubts about the Frenchman's account of a vessel lost 'within' Perdido Bay. As a kid I was always told by my grandfather that it was named this because an early Spanish explorer (I'm betting on de Vaca) had entered this inlet in a small vessel to look for freshwater and found an ample supply. When the same explorer returned to the coastline a few years later on a different expedition, he could not find the entrance to the bay due to its closure from a hurricane and thus named it Rio de los Perdidos. The frenchman's account is the only reference I've been able to find referring to it being named from the loss of a ship and all hands. One thing is for certain though.....there is a 16th century Spanish Cemetary on the western shore of Perdido Bay just south of Lillian Alabama that has been maintained. I am going to attempt to make it over there on a rainy day when its too nasty to be on the boat and obtain a list of names. I may even try to get over there during my lunch hour tomorrow since its only a 15 minute drive from where I work. I have no doubts about there being some interesting things to be found and hopefully the Frenchman had the true source of the river's name.

Pcola

 

[ivan salis]

ah I see what you are saying ---"struck" bottom as in bottomed out ---that makes perfect sense if the draft of the hercules was 20 feet and the depth of the pass only 21 feet the ship going over the bar bottomed out----(note if a vessel got "hung up" thus stuck when crossing the bar --- " repeated banging on its bottom" like that could crack her "back" or spring bad leaks which could be fatal to the ship ----many a ship was lost "on the Bar") --- I miss read it to mean was "stuck" instead of "struck" when reading of the HERCULES----sorry my mistake only human after all---AS YOU SAY ---there is a 1600's graveyard the names might be a clue or wording on the stones if you can read them that is-- the "dead" may "talk" to you and thus tell you their secerts after all----Ivan

 

[pcolaboy]

AS YOU SAY ---there is a 1600's graveyard the names might be a clue or wording on the stones if you can read them that is-- the "dead" may "talk" to you and thus tell you their secerts after all----Ivan

Believe me... that graveyard is creepy enough as it is...if I hear any voices talking to me I'm gonna be looking for the nearest exit as well as a clean pair of pants! Seriously though, I know what you're saying. I should point out that there are some relatively modern burials in the graveyard, as well as the 16th century ones, if memory serves. I'll take along my camera as well.

Pcola

 

[MichaelB]

You have probably already seen this account from the web?


In 1559, Luis de Velasco, Viceroy of New Spain, chose the lands around Pensacola Bay as the place to begin the conquest and colonization of Florida. Known as Polonza or Ochuse on maps of the day, members of two Spanish expeditions had visited the site searching for mythical riches during the preceding thirty years. Chosen to command the enterprise was a seasoned explorer, Don Tristan de Luna y Arellano, a veteran of the expeditions in Mexico under Hernan Cortes and Coronado’s journeys through the American Southwest in search of the mystical city of gold, Cibola

Arriving on August 15, 1559, colonists went ashore from their anchorage in Pensacola Bay to pick a suitable place to build a town, and de Luna dispatched scouting parties to look for food and any sign of native villages. A mere thirty five days later, a hurricane passed over the area destroying all but three of the vessels, some still loaded with essential supplies. The heavy rains which accompanied the storm damaged many supplies that they had already deposited on shore and many colonists lost their lives. Despite the arrival of four relief voyages from the Spanish colonies in Cuba and Mexico, the colony could not recover from the calamity that had befallen them. Hunger and discord among the colonists quickly escalated into mutiny and, despite the arrival of a new governor, the colony failed and the remaining settlers returned to Mexico, abandoning the Gulf Coast of Florida.

 

[pcolaboy]

Absolutely....this is what got me into looking for shipwrecks in the first place!!!

I talked with Dr. John Bratten yesterday, who is over the Marine Archaeology Dept at UWF. While it has not been officially reported yet, he believes they found a second wreck from the De Luna fleet. He was quite excited about it and I could tell he was holding alot back. The first wreck believed to be from De Luna's fleet, The Emmanuel Point Shipwreck, was studied and identified in 1992. It is the oldest known shipwreck in Florida, at least it was at that time. Here is a link to the UWF web page for it:

http://uwf.edu/anthropology/research/emanuel.cfm

What's even cooler is that there are another 4 or possibly 5 more of the fleet yet to be found!!!! De Luna's account clearly indicated that they lost all of their ships asside from a two small caravels and a small galley. The total number of ships he brought to Pensacola varies from 9 to 11 depending upon who's giving the speech or selling the book. Some of the confusion has to do with the fact that he sent at least one of his ships back to Veracruz to report a successful arrival in Pensacola. It is not known if that ship made it back before the hurricane struck the fleet at anchor in Pensacola Bay. I seriously doubt it could have made the roundtrip that fast.

You have probably already seen this account from the web?


In 1559, Luis de Velasco, Viceroy of New Spain, chose the lands around Pensacola Bay as the place to begin the conquest and colonization of Florida. Known as Polonza or Ochuse on maps of the day, members of two Spanish expeditions had visited the site searching for mythical riches during the preceding thirty years. Chosen to command the enterprise was a seasoned explorer, Don Tristan de Luna y Arellano, a veteran of the expeditions in Mexico under Hernan Cortes and Coronado’s journeys through the American Southwest in search of the mystical city of gold, Cibola

Arriving on August 15, 1559, colonists went ashore from their anchorage in Pensacola Bay to pick a suitable place to build a town, and de Luna dispatched scouting parties to look for food and any sign of native villages. A mere thirty five days later, a hurricane passed over the area destroying all but three of the vessels, some still loaded with essential supplies. The heavy rains which accompanied the storm damaged many supplies that they had already deposited on shore and many colonists lost their lives. Despite the arrival of four relief voyages from the Spanish colonies in Cuba and Mexico, the colony could not recover from the calamity that had befallen them. Hunger and discord among the colonists quickly escalated into mutiny and, despite the arrival of a new governor, the colony failed and the remaining settlers returned to Mexico, abandoning the Gulf Coast of Florida.

 

[ivan salis]

pcolaboy ---my count is 13 vessels leaving vera cruz ---on june 11th ,1559 commanded by de Luna---- (about 2 months later) on august 14th ,1559 they arrived and anchored at the bay of santa maria--(pensacola bay) ---Luna told one ship to go back to tell of their safe arrival---thus leaving 12 there----(about a month later) on the night of sept 19th,1559 they were struck while at anchor by a "quote--- tempest from the north that lasted 24 hours and which shattered to pieces --5 ships,a galleon,and a bark with great loss of life and swept a caravel with its cargo,into a grove of trees more than a Harquebus (old type match lock rifle) shot from the shore-----unquote"-------this means at least 7 ships went down (5 "ships" + 1 galleon+ 1 bark) that is if the caravel was one of the 5 ships---if not then at least 8 ships went down (5 ships,+1 galleon + 1 bark,+ 1 caravel) ---even if the 5 ships are the "total" of ships lost---with the rest being just the discriptions of the types of vessels lost---there is a minimum of 5 ships at the very least----so 5 to 8 ships ---one a treasure galleon ----and of them only one is known to have been found so far (the "point" wreck) a regular cargo type vessel one of the basic cargo type --"5" ships listed---and it is without a doubt not "the galleon" a word only used for "treasure" baring vessels in spanish records of that day---so 4 to 7 vessels out there 1 worth a mint---happy hunting is all I can say---Ivan

 

[pcolaboy]

I'm familiar with that widely reported account as well. However, there is further evidence that I believe came from research at an archive in Seville, Spain where it was reported that at least two of de Luna's ships were dispatched immediately after arriving to notify of the fleet's safe arrival - one to Havana and one to Veracruz. It's highly doubtful that these ships could have made it to their destinations and returned within 30 days (before the hurricane struck) especially since these voyages would have most likely followed the known coastlines. This is why it is believed that there were a maximum number of 11 ships in the harbor when the hurricane struck.

Why on earth would they would bring a ship laden with treasure on a colonization voyage? It just doesn't make sense to me - not saying that they wouldn't have done it. 1500 settlers, 100 horses, 200 heads of cattle, water/provisions/ personal effects, and a ship full of treasure? Help me understand this.

Pcolaboy

pcolaboy ---my count is 13 vessels leaving vera cruz ---on june 11th ,1559 commanded by de Luna---- (about 2 months later) on august 14th ,1559 they arrived and anchored at the bay of santa maria--(pensacola bay) ---Luna told one ship to go back to tell of their safe arrival---thus leaving 12 there----(about a month later) on the night of sept 19th,1559 they were struck while at anchor by a "quote--- tempest from the north that lasted 24 hours and which shattered to pieces --5 ships,a galleon,and a bark with great loss of life and swept a caravel with its cargo,into a grove of trees more than a Harquebus (old type match lock rifle) shot from the shore-----unquote"-------this means at least 7 ships went down (5 "ships" + 1 galleon+ 1 bark) that is if the caravel was one of the 5 ships---if not then at least 8 ships went down (5 ships,+1 galleon + 1 bark,+ 1 caravel) ---even if the 5 ships are the "total" of ships lost---with the rest being just the discriptions of the types of vessels lost---there is a minimum of 5 ships at the very least----so 5 to 8 ships ---one a treasure galleon ----and of them only one is known to have been found so far (the "point" wreck) a regular cargo type vessel one of the basic cargo type --"5" ships listed---and it is without a doubt not "the galleon" a word only used for "treasure" baring vessels in spanish records of that day---so 4 to 7 vessels out there 1 worth a mint---happy hunting is all I can say---Ivan

 

[ivan salis]

the galleon was "moving " on afterward ---it was just traveling "along" with them for "protection" and company it was bound for havana later---galleons were know to be quite slow due to both the heavy treasure and extra guns and men placed upon them to protect it --- so if two ships were sent to report their "safe" arrival---one to havana and one to vera cruz -- then we both agree that 11 ships were there at the time of the hurricane ---of which I personnally think 8 were lost --- (5 cargo naos---1 galleon---1 bark------1 caravel in the trees) this leaves only 3 ships left after the storm. the treasure ship was just in transit and they happened to be going there way so to speak---mostly likely waiting for the other vessels to off load their "goods" for the colony and "escort" her to havana to unload at the warehouses there or to "link up" with a home bound fleet--Ivan

 

[pcolaboy]

the galleon was "moving " on afterward ---it was just traveling "along" with them for "protection" and company it was bound for havana later---galleons were know to be quite slow due to both the heavy treasure and extra guns and men placed upon them to protect it --- so if two ships were sent to report their "safe" arrival---one to havana and one to vera cruz -- then we both agree that 11 ships were there at the time of the hurricane ---of which I personnally think 8 were lost --- (5 cargo naos---1 galleon---1 bark------1 caravel in the trees) this leaves only 3 ships left after the storm. the treasure ship was just in transit and they happened to be going there way so to speak---mostly likely waiting for the other vessels to off load their "goods" for the colony and "escort" her to havana to unload at the warehouses there or to "link up" with a home bound fleet--Ivan

Ok, I see what you're saying now and that does make sense. :P

Thanks,

Pcola

 

[ivan salis]

long time no hear hows it going guys---state shafted me ---said the area were my wreck is located at is a "protected" ---"aquatic preserve and state park zone" and thus they would not issue "salvage permits to for profit salvors in that area" but that I "could" get a "non salvage research type permit" if I wanted to "pay" for one to do "research"--- fat lot of good that does me--- I can't earn a cent from that and being that I'm not indepently wealthy (yet)* give me time laddy ---- I can not afford to waste my time on non profitible ventures at this time--- damn that bites----to know where a great ship wreck is and not be able to "legally" touch it--Ivan

 

[El_Capitan]

Wow... This thread is amazing... hey guys, I'm completely new at this, and have been fascinated with shipwrecks for a while, but just getting into the treasure hunting "fix". I'm a diver up here in the northland (minnesota), and have been doing some basic (and I mean basic) review of some of shipwrecks in general. Hey, not to jump into what has already been researched in depth, but if anyone is looking for a diver or a dive partner, let me know and I can see what I can come up with. I was going to start looking at researching a potential French galleon wreck in Lake Michigan. Seems like I'll be doing alot more research at this point. Some rumors say its been cleaned out, and others say no... But if I happen to find some solid evidence or points, what will I need to start hunting? I read things about sideimaging, and stuff. Sounds expensive. Like I said, I'm a rookie at this, so I'd appreciate any tips. thanks, and good luckwith those Spanish finds...

 

[pcolaboy]

Nothing to report at this time. Every chance I've had to get out on the boat gets sabotaged either by gas thieves or the weather. My wife gets home from her out of town training tomorrow night (thank you God) so I should be freed up quite a bit more.

I did manage to check out the old cemetary on the west shore of Perdido Bay. It's certainly MUCH different now than it was when I was a kid. Apparently a subdivision was built completely around it but it does appear as though they are keeping up most of the grounds except for a heavily overgrown portion of the cemetary property. Most of the tombstones are from those who departed us in the early 20th century and a few from the mid to late 19th. However, there are ALOT of spanish surnames which is certainly not common for this portion of Alabama. I did snap some photos with my digital camera. Once I get my PC back online following a lightning strike last Monday, I will post them.

Pcola

 

[ivan salis]

EL Capt ---first you need to do a bit of research to make sure that the wreck is worth while did it actually have said "treasure" aboard it or is just a local folk tale? once you do find out that it DID have the treasure on it --usually via old records of some type--- the 2nd question is where was it actually lost at? the 3rd question is ---has it already been found or looted by others since its loss?---again if its a "large" find ---it will have most likely been noted some where in the "records" that it was "found"-- if not on to step 4. is it in a "legally" harvestible place or area---its not in a "aquatic preserve" or other non harvestible zone is it?---step 5.who "owns" the wreck? and will that be a problem with the "harvesting" of the wreck site?---- 6, do you know of some trustworthy folks to assist you in "harvesting" your wreck---trust me your going to need them since most all states "require" that you have certain group of "trained" type of people engaged when you "harvest" a wreck site --the I'm going solo approach will not work unless you just "looting" a site and that in the end is nothing but trouble--- then of course you need the tools for the "job" and the "skills" to know how to use them properly---it not as easy as it sounds trust me on that--Ivan

 

[Tomcat24]

Hello, any of you guys still around? I grew up on Perdido Bay/Bayou Marcus Creek and found this thread fascinating. Moved back to the bay and have a boat if anyone wants to go on any marine recon missions.

 

[WeezieBama]

How would someone go about getting the Period Bay explored for lost treasure. A friend of mine was born and raised in Lillian, AL, and has information on there being a lot of treasure in the bay.

 

[ARC]

Wow... a blast from the past thread resurrected again.

Started over a decade ago. :/