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Thread: Placing a value on the French monument removed by the Spanish and lost at Sea.

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  1. #16

    May 2006
    827
    375 times
    I have not heard of any cannon going for more than a million, or even close. Some royal armours have, but not artillery. The trouble with cannons is that there are not many collectors pushing up the price on them. Museums in Europe have got their funding reduced. so you are looking at New World Museums and collectors. And if you flood the market with twenty or thirty "rare cannons" the price will automatically come down. In England our Museums ethic code forbad us from giving valuations- also tell them to go to reputable dealer- and even to identify objects if they were going for sale. I do not know if US museums have the same codes. The Getty might be interested in your French monument, if no local museums want to be involved.
    eyemustdigtreasure likes this.

  2. #17
    us
    Dec 2008
    Dominican Republic - Sebastian, Florida
    Aqua Pulse and Pluse 8 JW Fishers, Garret Sea hunter II
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    270 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Darren in Trinidad View Post
    After 25 years of doing this, I hear this all the time. Mel Fisher and Odyssey do the same thing - they always believe their finds are worth zillions and overstate their value. I do hope a "professional" will tell you otherwise. I really do.

    Smithbrown above mentioned a respectable auctioneer like Bonhams. He knows what he speaks of. Even extremely rare cannon from the 1600s don't fetch hundreds of thousands...

    https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/149...?category=list

    Good luck.
    Darren Thanks for your input" but how many items have you sold that was a treasure, GME sold a 42 inch bronze cannon with no precise origin for $46,000

    This one cannon from 1548 off the Cape with the story will bring close to one million dollars, the others will bring high price too. the Monument 50-60 mil possable.

    Do your homework and look up auction of like, maybe this will help you understand

    But GME needs a professional opinion, they are out there, we just need some help finding them.

    Do you guys understand the story, these items, not the ship,(changed the history of Florida), because there is no proof where this ship came from or what country it is related too. But we do know where this monument came from and are sure the same on the cannon. ( not in French control at the time of sinking)

    When we did the pewter auction we got top Dollar because we went to the right people in the right pace and it was worth what we sold it for.
    This will be no different, although we would rather settle with the State, they have turned down our offer to settle so the other to settle will be 3 times the amount we offer the first time in 5 months once France is out the way. And yes I know the State and the arches are listening.
    ropesfish and bonuntr like this.

  3. #18

    Feb 2007
    U.S.
    Garrett, Minelab, Aqua-Pulse
    746
    166 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hey Black Duck: You might want to contact Steve Condella in Key West regarding your guns. He's known as the Cannon King of Key West. He has a huge collection of bronze guns and goes all over the globe chasing them down.


    Meanwhile, I don't think most of our fellow travelers here on this forum are completely aware of just how momentous your discoveries are. The guns, especially the one I have examined in detail via your U/W video, are remarkable. The monument itself is, in my book, priceless. The combination makes them a national treasure worthy of the Smithsonian for certain, or the Fort Caroline National Monument at the very least. These are not common in any sense, but represent, very firmly, the first non-secular drama in North America, very well documented, with dimensions in Europe and the New World simultaneously.


    I've added some illustrations of what the actual monument might have looked like based on Bill Seliger's drawing and the further description by Guilliame Rouffi as recorded by the Spanish and handed down to us by Jeanette Thurber-Connor. The markups on the gun are from a similar cannon recorded by Mendel Peterson in one of his Green Book volumes.


    At the Fort Caroline National Monument there are two bronze guns, neither having provenence with the Huguenots. One is from the San Martin (Green Cabin Wreck), and the other one I have no info on, but neither have the obvious details as your own. While the monument(s) have been recreated by the DAR, and stylized by DeBry's second-hand illustrations of Le Moyne's work, NOBODY has actually seen one until now, 450 years later! Lots of folks have looked, but nobody had found them/it. BTW, DeBry's illustrations were published in 1589 I think, several decades after the fact, and so far as I know, Le Moyne's actual drawings have yet to be found.


    I think the GME success has driven the artifact salvage/shipwreck recovery agenda hosted by the high-ground moralists over a cliff. Shall Americans suffer because of their philosophy, or shall Americans persist as they have in the past relying on solid scientific methods and proven tactics? It seems that the only argument here is one centered upon motives rather than actual results. Do the work. Get paid for the work. Key word is "WORK"; not "PRAYER", not "PHILOSOPHY", not "OPINION". Florida government has tied itself up with its own rope and I don't really believe that those of us being governed had any intentional part in making that rope.


    When Drake sacked St. Augustine, he noted five French cannon at the fort. De Gourges made no remarks about the cannon at the Spanish occupation of the former Fort Caroline that I know of.


    BTW, I still think the Triniti is at Pad 39B.

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    AARC, bonuntr and Bum Luck like this.

  4. #19
    Charter Member
    us
    Pirate of the Martires

    Feb 2005
    Port Richey, Florida
    Aquapulse, J.W. Fisher Proton 3, Pulse Star II, Detector Pro Headhunter, AK-47
    3,383
    1454 times
    Shipwrecks
    Terry in your illustration of the cannon I noticed there are no dolphins. Was this common for that type cannon?

  5. #20

    Feb 2007
    U.S.
    Garrett, Minelab, Aqua-Pulse
    746
    166 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Salvor6 View Post
    Terry in your illustration of the cannon I noticed there are no dolphins. Was this common for that type cannon?
    No, actually this was not the common practice, however, I think these guns were primarily for field artillery instead of deck guns. Maybe that would make a difference. Don't know as an expert might. If you check out the Peterson Green Books, you do see guns of that period without dolphins or lifting eyes per se. This gun in the drawing also has a fitting on the cascabel for the use of an elevator screw, which was unusual for a deck gun that I know of. Also, I assume the gun was laying top up as there are sights and a touch hole in plain view, however, I am not sure anybody has actually seen the bottom side of this gun, so we can not be certain what other doo dads might be attached to it.
    Last edited by signumops; May 01, 2017 at 02:18 PM.
    AARC likes this.

  6. #21

    May 2006
    827
    375 times
    Do you have a picture of your $46,000 cannon- that must have been something special!

  7. #22
    us
    Dec 2008
    Dominican Republic - Sebastian, Florida
    Aqua Pulse and Pluse 8 JW Fishers, Garret Sea hunter II
    268
    270 times
    Quote Originally Posted by signumops View Post
    Hey Black Duck: You might want to contact Steve Condella in Key West regarding your guns. He's known as the Cannon King of Key West. He has a huge collection of bronze guns and goes all over the globe chasing them down.


    Meanwhile, I don't think most of our fellow travelers here on this forum are completely aware of just how momentous your discoveries are. The guns, especially the one I have examined in detail via your U/W video, are remarkable. The monument itself is, in my book, priceless. The combination makes them a national treasure worthy of the Smithsonian for certain, or the Fort Caroline National Monument at the very least. These are not common in any sense, but represent, very firmly, the first non-secular drama in North America, very well documented, with dimensions in Europe and the New World simultaneously.


    I've added some illustrations of what the actual monument might have looked like based on Bill Seliger's drawing and the further description by Guilliame Rouffi as recorded by the Spanish and handed down to us by Jeanette Thurber-Connor. The markups on the gun are from a similar cannon recorded by Mendel Peterson in one of his Green Book volumes.


    At the Fort Caroline National Monument there are two bronze guns, neither having provenence with the Huguenots. One is from the San Martin (Green Cabin Wreck), and the other one I have no info on, but neither have the obvious details as your own. While the monument(s) have been recreated by the DAR, and stylized by DeBry's second-hand illustrations of Le Moyne's work, NOBODY has actually seen one until now, 450 years later! Lots of folks have looked, but nobody had found them/it. BTW, DeBry's illustrations were published in 1589 I think, several decades after the fact, and so far as I know, Le Moyne's actual drawings have yet to be found.


    I think the GME success has driven the artifact salvage/shipwreck recovery agenda hosted by the high-ground moralists over a cliff. Shall Americans suffer because of their philosophy, or shall Americans persist as they have in the past relying on solid scientific methods and proven tactics? It seems that the only argument here is one centered upon motives rather than actual results. Do the work. Get paid for the work. Key word is "WORK"; not "PRAYER", not "PHILOSOPHY", not "OPINION". Florida government has tied itself up with its own rope and I don't really believe that those of us being governed had any intentional part in making that rope.


    When Drake sacked St. Augustine, he noted five French cannon at the fort. De Gourges made no remarks about the cannon at the Spanish occupation of the former Fort Caroline that I know of.


    BTW, I still think the Triniti is at Pad 39B.

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    Terry the monument with the 1561 was at Charles fort and taken by the Spanish and then taken to Spain as a prize "maybe u new that I am sure"
    That would have only left one monument the one we found that was on land when the Spanish took over Fort Caroline and the area. The Trinite is at dead lake no question, the map we have from 1565 and the captured French mens statement proves this, but you are right there is material at pad 39 noted by Doug Armstrong and You Terry I believe.

    We found around 80 targets (anomalies)in that area of 39B when we were testing some equipment but never dove them. And never did a full survey, As the problems with the State came up.

    The ancient painting 18 x 26 centimeters of the column by Le Moyne in 1564 was discovered in 1901 at the Chateau de Ganay. and is now in the New Your Library. This is a perfect match of the column GME discovered. The column Le Moyne painted was on land at the time near Fort Caroline, one year before the Spanish took the Fort and area over.

    So just this again proves the Trinite is not what GME found.

    Terry you do good work

  8. #23
    us
    Dec 2008
    Dominican Republic - Sebastian, Florida
    Aqua Pulse and Pluse 8 JW Fishers, Garret Sea hunter II
    268
    270 times
    Smith brown I miss spoke "sorry" it was 42,000
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click for Large View - #1 - Newsletter - October 2012.pdf   Click for Large View - #9 Newsletter - August 2013.pdf   Click for Large View - #11 Newsletter - October 2013.pdf  

  9. #24
    us
    Dec 2008
    Dominican Republic - Sebastian, Florida
    Aqua Pulse and Pluse 8 JW Fishers, Garret Sea hunter II
    268
    270 times
    You will also notice in the bottom corner of auction 14 is the same cannon, nothing fancy but it maybe the only bronze cannon found in the SW DR,

  10. #25
    us
    Apr 2004
    Tesoro Sand Shark, Homebuilt pulse loop
    2,665
    1176 times
    Shipwrecks
    Very nice, Bobby. I'm really glad you got that price. I do hope you can get a high valuation on the other items you found. Keep us informed. We're cheering for you.

  11. #26
    us
    Dec 2008
    Dominican Republic - Sebastian, Florida
    Aqua Pulse and Pluse 8 JW Fishers, Garret Sea hunter II
    268
    270 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Darren in Trinidad View Post
    Very nice, Bobby. I'm really glad you got that price. I do hope you can get a high valuation on the other items you found. Keep us informed. We're cheering for you.
    Thanks Darren,

    Because of the story and the connecting painting from the same time period these items are priceless,even though its NOT from the Trinite, it is connected to Fort Caroline and the Huguenots. By the fact these items where on land.

    So why the State of Florida would rather them set in this hazardous environment and waste away rather then let the company that had a legal permit, that discovered them, documented them, completed more permits in 3 years then have ever even been completed ever in the History of Florida is beyond me.

    Whats worse is this Governor is allowing this department and the SEC. of State to hurt small business. NOT GOOD PEOPLE.

  12. #27

    May 2006
    827
    375 times
    Thanks for the pictures.

  13. #28

    Jan 2016
    888
    563 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Seeker the shield was not bronze, it was made of stone marble this we have documentation of, what you have is not a real refernce,if you do you research you will see that 5 came over in 1562, 3 went back to France in 1562 and one was captured in 1564 and taken to Spain, that leaves one, the one GME found,
    All what I say I have original ref, source
    I did say check the other 3 and see where they are if possible. There are several sources that claim the same thing, that it was bronze shields on the stone pillar, and several reproductions are bronze. Why would all of the reproductions, especially the one in France, and text state bronze shields?

    I really doubt if they would carry 5 entire stone monuments over on the ship.

    The National Park Service monument: https://www.nps.gov/timu/learn/histo...ltmonument.htm

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    French Fleet History

    The replica column Dieppe Castle in France is stone with bronze plate.

    Lecture dedicated to Jean Ribault invites Florida to Dieppe, (...) - Consulat Général de France à Miami

    The images you have provided from the bottom do not appear to show marble, as stated in the historical accounts.

    Can you share your source?

    Also the area is under surveillance, and off limits and we are in Federal court with France and the State of Florida right now. over this issue, so be advised that you will get boarded if anyone trying to dive sites
    Matters not, under surveillance? Even with an Admiralty Arrest, you can dive and take pictures. You cannot of course remove anything, but there is no restriction on the Ocean.
    Last edited by seekerGH; May 03, 2017 at 06:53 PM.

  14. #29
    us
    Dec 2008
    Dominican Republic - Sebastian, Florida
    Aqua Pulse and Pluse 8 JW Fishers, Garret Sea hunter II
    268
    270 times
    Quote Originally Posted by seekerGH View Post
    I did say check the other 3 and see where they are if possible. There are several sources that claim the same thing, that it was bronze shields on the stone pillar, and the reproduction in place is bronze. I really doubt if they would carry 5 entire stone monuments over on the ship.

    The National Park Service monument: https://www.nps.gov/timu/learn/histo...ltmonument.htm

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	landing-hires.jpg 
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ID:	1447163

    French Fleet History

    The replica column Dieppe Castle in France is stone with bronze plate.

    Lecture dedicated to Jean Ribault invites Florida to Dieppe, (...) - Consulat Général de France à Miami

    Can you share your source?
    I can see where u may confused but
    All these are not good sources, we only use original source's, the columns where marble, There is no bronze plate or other wise in original docs, I have over 80 lbs of documents on this subject alone, And GME obviously discovered the marble one from Fort Caroline, in 1564 the Spanish moved the other stone monument from Charles Fort

  15. #30
    us
    da book worm--researcher

    Feb 2007
    callahan,fl
    delta 4000 / ace 250 - used BH and many others too
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    I am of the belief that the Spanish took the monument (the French coat of arms part) as "proof" that France was trying to claim their lands ...which would justify them killing the settlers as well as rebuilt and his soldiers ...it was being transshipped most likely from St Augustine along with other looted French items from Fort Caroline back to Spain ,,,the sailing route in those days was thru the Caribbean --thus it would have travelled southward from Augustine then across the ocean to Spain -- this explains why it was sunk to the south of St Augustine (near the cape) ---being the items are "war prize" Spanish items == France has no claim upon them and Spain has given up claims to shipwrecks pre 1750 as per a prior court settlement --1565 is way before 1750 --so there goes Spain's claims ..so its a good to go shipwreck

 

 
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