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Thread: Placing a value on the French monument removed by the Spanish and lost at Sea.

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  1. #31
    us
    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Duck View Post
    I can see where u may confused but
    All these are not good sources, we only use original source's, the columns where marble, There is no bronze plate or other wise in original docs, I have over 80 lbs of documents on this subject alone, And GME obviously discovered the marble one from Fort Caroline, in 1564 the Spanish moved the other stone monument from Charles Fort

    This is not from our research as I can not show that at this time but here are some others info. And yes it really says

    marblehttps://www.accessgenealogy.com/america/first-voyage-commanded-by-jean-ribault-1562.htm

    https://books.google.com/books?id=Gx...nument&f=false

    you can see my point here, these are not referenced from the original papers, and there were five ( 5) monuments brought over not 3 in 1562 not 1565,

    I have done more research and have more time in this subject i am sure than any one "period" and have the docs to back it up,
    Not including Bill Seligers time or Attorney at law Barry Chapman from Valdosta, Ga.
    No one has the hours we have in this.

    I would also like to point out that France has not won in court against GME, as i guess these arch's keep saying, also France nor the State of Florida has no proof to their claim, ( so by law they will loose because they have no case) and I might add that Chuck Meade and John de-bry have made and are making false statements and misslead the public with there incorrect information, that they have no documentation to back up there statements,in my opinion they are both amateurs and have no real field experince in real shipwreck exploration and recovery.
    Just saying
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  2. #32

    Jan 2016
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    Thats all good. I am just looking at many of the sources, and that NPS made the monument with the bronze plaques, as did the French, and questioning why they would do that if the original were solid stone.

    Aside from that, from the link, you can see there is a Ribault Society in France, so they may be good to contact on the value.

    Good luck.

  3. #33
    us
    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by seekerGH View Post
    Thats all good. I am just looking at many of the sources, and that NPS made the monument with the bronze plaques, as did the French, and questioning why they would do that if the original were solid stone.

    Aside from that, from the link, you can see there is a Ribault Society in France, so they may be good to contact on the value.

    Good luck.
    Thanks Seeker, any info is helpful

    GME as I have said earlier, has traced the monument made of stone with no mention of a bronze/brass plate taken by the Spanish from Charles Fort, then to Cuba then left Cuba on a ship with Captain to go to Spain. We have no info after leaving Cuba, but we do know this column had a 1561 date at the bottom as Terry Armstrong has drawn in a early comment.

  4. #34
    Charter Member
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    The continuing adventures of Ropesfish -

    Jun 2007
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    Is there a way to get a return on investment without actually conveying the title of the artifact? As soon as a salvor sells an artifact, we get branded as being ruthless/greedy/money-hungry mere 'treasure' hunters by the opposing team -those guys who don't have to worry about making payroll, buying fuel and equipment and satisfying their investors. Museums, of course, want donations or loans with no costs borne by the museum other than security and conservation. So...what's left other than an auction, a private sale or maybe a traveling exhibit that charges admission? Finding a French or Spanish museum that wants to change their business model? I really don't know what the answer here is, but I think that some out-of-the-box thinking might be required to maximize the return on a find of this sort of rarity. It will have to be presented with a lot of accompanying context so people can understand just what this find represents, which is a very, very early turning point in the history of the Americas.
    I look forward to further discussion.

    There's a book idea for someone...an alternate history series...what would have happened if...the French had kept possession of La Florida, if El Cazador had made port carrying all those pesos to shore up the Spanish government in New Orleans...etc.
    bonuntr, Blak bart and Jaba like this.
    Bill Black
    Search and Salvage "C-31"
    Sebastian, FL
    ropesfish@gmail.com

    Subcontractor on the 1715 Plate Fleet
    “You can either be a victim of the world or an adventurer in search of treasure. It all depends on how you view your life.”
    Paulo Coelho, Eleven Minutes

  5. #35

    Feb 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Duck View Post
    Thanks Seeker, any info is helpful

    GME as I have said earlier, has traced the monument made of stone with no mention of a bronze/brass plate taken by the Spanish from Charles Fort, then to Cuba then left Cuba on a ship with Captain to go to Spain. We have no info after leaving Cuba, but we do know this column had a 1561 date at the bottom as Terry Armstrong has drawn in a early comment.
    Here is another illustration, in color, showing my reconstruction of the monument, laid out atop the page from the Vander Aa manuscript featuring a re-cut of the de Bry engraving. This second publication of the Huguenot story was put to the press around 1705 and Vander Aa made copies of the de Bry engravings. They are very close in almost every detail and are reprinted in their original form in "A Hundred Giants" which I published in 2014. I also added a photo of one of the two bronze guns on display at the Fort Caroline National Monument. I has no dolphins and is shown fixed on a typical deck mount, which I am not certain is correct as this was probably a field piece instead.

    The stone monument discovered by Global Marine Exploration along Cape Canaveral bears resemblance to at least a piece of the monument described by Le Moyne and later produced in print by Theodore de Bry. In this model, the page shown is from the Vander Aa manuscript reprint of the Huguenot saga, and the illustration is a copy of the de Bry engraving. According to Jeannette Thurber Connor, one of the Frenchmen, Rouffi, described the monument to wit:

    "The said pillar/' says the Spanish relation concerning Rojas, "is of white stone, as tall and large as a man, more or less; and at the top thereof is graven an escutcheon with a crown surmounting it, and within it are three fleurs-delys; and farther down, an R(I R) which the said Guillermo said was the name in cipher of the queen mother of France; he said she was called Catalina; and farther down, four figures in numerals which read 1561."


    The piece found by Global Marine Exploration, while degraded over its long period of submersion, still displays all of the appropriate features as described by Rouffi, sans the bottom half. In this model the bottom half is presented here without any warrantee of fidelity, however, the monument may have looked like this, based upon the piece found at sea, and the description by Rouffi.

    Rouffi stayed in S.C. in the area of Parris Island when the Huguenots left there, bound for Europe after the failure of their adventure in 1562. Rouffi lived with the Indians and was located by Rojas when he scouted the area looking for the Huguenot fort and the stone monument. Rouffi was taken captive by the Spaniards and he led them to the monument in question. His first-hand description of it would be the best information we have regarding its design. Note that he used the term "graven", meaning that it was "cut" or "etched" into the stone.

    If you want to see a 3D video of this particular model, go to Signum Ops | Videos and scroll toward the bottom to see a multi-view.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #36
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    da book worm--researcher

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    yep --- graven = cut or etched into stone

  7. #37
    us
    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivan salis View Post
    yep --- graven = cut or etched into stone
    yes Terry is right cut or etched into stone, thats what we have in the docs also.

    nice follow up

  8. #38
    us
    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivan salis View Post
    yep --- graven = cut or etched into stone
    Yes, Terry is right, cut or etched into stone, thats what we have in the docs also.

    nice follow up

  9. #39
    us
    Pirate of the Martires

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    Just a note: after Pedro Menendez massacred the French forces of Jean Ribault and killed everyone (except 50 women and children) at Charlesfort, French nobleman Dominique de Gourge sold everything he had, borrowed money from his brother and sent 3 ships and 200 men to Florida in 1568. There he enlisted the help of the Saturiwa and Tatcuru tribes and attacked Charlesfort (Renamed Ft. San Mateo by the Spanish). He executed all the Spaniards in the fort and hung their bodies in the trees with a note; "not Spaniards but murderers."
    Last edited by Salvor6; May 07, 2017 at 04:35 PM. Reason: added date

  10. #40

    Jan 2016
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    Well, there are several accounts for certain, but.....

    My question is, why would the Ribault Society in France create a stone column with bronze plaques?

    The NPS has a very similar column as well.

    This is an flat sided column with a raised plaque.. This image is one of the Theodore de Bry engravings, from artwork by Jacques Le Moyne, who was with the 1564 expedition
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This painting looks just like the monument...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    In the 3D models, it is likely, if 1561 was engraved, it would have been in Roman numerals....although in none of the illustrations is this apparent...

    EDIT: I am wondering if this may be a part of the Fort?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by seekerGH; May 07, 2017 at 05:48 PM.

  11. #41

    Jan 2016
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    Well then, here is more....

    "Was the wreck of La Trinité , the flagship of Dieppois Jean Ribault, discovered in September 2015 off Cape Canaveral, Florida (USA)? The identification of the remains found by 8 meters of bottom is very difficult and even considered contentious by all the dieppe historians contacted. This has attracted a great deal of interest from Pierre Ickowicz , curator of the castle museum in Dieppe. " I'm following this up, " he said . It is a very important discovery for the history of Dieppe and Jean Ribault who built Fort Caroline. Besides, in his collections, the castle-museum already exhibits a wooden piece of this fort, Discovered by American archaeologists in the 1930s, during work in Jacksonville. Since the discovery of the wreck, I have been in touch with Cécile Sauvage of the Department of Underwater and Underwater Archaeological Research (Drassm), an agency under the Ministry of Culture, in order to recover something from the wreck. "

    "Marble pillar for proof

    The curator of the castle museum Dieppois has strong presumption about the identification of the wreck. In September 2015, Global Marine Exploration (GME) divers, an agency sworn in by the US government, as they search for pieces of rockets taking off from Cape Canaveral, accidentally fall on the remains of a ship. It contained three bronze cannons, nineteen iron and twelve anchors, and a column of marble on which were engraved the French coat of arms. As the French-language newspaper Le Courrier de Floride explains on December 1, 2016, France claims ownership of the wreck of La Trinité . " The negotiations are underway between the Embassy of France and the US government, Continues Pierre Ickowicz. It is the marble column that makes me strongly believe that it is the French ship that has been found. We have a reproduction in the castle-museum. Why a Spanish ship would carry what is probably the most symbolic thing of taking possession of an unknown land that marble pillar? The Spaniards would have either destroyed it or been buried. "
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    one needs to be careful, as the column in France is a Memorial Column, and much taller that the original....too bad..but it does appear that this one at the Museum is all stone
    Click image for larger version. 

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  12. #42

    Jan 2016
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    "The Republic of France last week filed legal claim to the shipwreck in the Orlando court, saying that under the U.S. Sunken Military Craft Act, ships that sailed for France still belong to France. That’s so even if more than four centuries have passed, said James A. Goold, the attorney representing France. He’s worked with several countries in numerous high-profile disputes with underwater treasure seekers.

    “Admiralty law and international law is very clear that the owner of a ship does not lose its ownership just because the ship sank,” Goold said Tuesday.

    I see the issue a bit more clearly now, was this wreck part of the Ribaults vessels going back and forth, (with the columns going back and forth, or cannon and a monument that was captured and on a non-military vessel.

    Nobody mentioned Goold was on this...
    Last edited by seekerGH; May 07, 2017 at 06:19 PM.

  13. #43
    us
    ARC

    Aug 2014
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    Actually...

    Menendez wrote... ""This is done, not as unto Frenchmen, but as unto Lutherans."

    De GourgUes wrote... "This is done, not as unto Spaniards, but as unto liars, thieves, and murderers."


    Btw...
    Fantastic thread.

    And would say one of the best threads I have seen on Treasurenet.

    Thanks for the updates as well... super cool.

    I'm jealous.
    Last edited by AARC; May 07, 2017 at 07:16 PM.
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  14. #44
    us
    da book worm--researcher

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    to answer the why would a Spanish vessel be carrying the French coat of arms etched marble pillar section ? easy its the "proof" Spain needed as to why they killed the French in Florida...it was being transported back to Europe to settle any arguments ( its the smoking gun--so to speak) ,,,the "proof" that the French were erecting a pillar in a attempt to claim Spanish lands ...which would allow Spain the right to kill the French that were there as "invaders" --legally speaking

  15. #45
    us
    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivan salis View Post
    to answer the why would a Spanish vessel be carrying the French coat of arms etched marble pillar section ? easy its the "proof" Spain needed as to why they killed the French in Florida...it was being transported back to Europe to settle any arguments ( its the smoking gun--so to speak) ,,,the "proof" that the French were erecting a pillar in a attempt to claim Spanish lands ...which would allow Spain the right to kill the French that were there as "invaders" --legally speaking
    Guys let me put some facts out here so you can understand

    Seeker you are misinformed for one, and what is your dog in this fight, I do not know you are what you have in the way of experience or equipment, but this is not your wreck nor should you be asking permission from the wrong people I might add. GME is a professional proven company not some joker want to be.
    We do not need you butting into an on going court issue of which you have no business in. So be warned ( not keep out of this its none of your business.)

    This is for the judge to decide.

    Just saying why are you butting your nose into this, do u not have your own projects or do you just talk all the time and do nothing.

    Seeker what is your name and address I want to send you something.

    I will say good find on the stone column with out the bronze plate, but everyone knows that people over state, he was 7 foot tall and he was really 5.5

    1. There was a column placed near Fort Caroline in 1562 NOT 1565
    2. There was a column placed in Charles Fort 1562 this column had a date of 1562 see Terry Armstrong's drawing, This column was removed by the Spanish in 1564 and taken to Spain "documented" so here is your answer why they did not destroy the one near Fort Caroline. Because sSpain wanted it.
    3. There was NO monuments on the Trinite or the manifest of the Trininte "period" again documented and they had needle and tread on the manifest.
    4. Nothing GME has found match's the Manifest of any of the ships from Ribault again "Period"
    5. France cannot claim what is not theres and they have no proof, none, zero,because its not the Trinite and they named it.
    As they told the court all the witness's died 450 years ago joking about it. What kind of people would say this ( oh thats right that lying attorney James Goold.and the lying attorneys at the State of Florida,)
    6. Once the Spanish took over Fort Caroline in 1565 the column and cannon form the front and anything else became property of Spain, But we do not know that the Spanish took the column we only know they removed it "period"
    7. Their must be proof of what country the ship was from that was caring these items. And it must be military.

    Robert H Pritchett III ( Bobby)
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