Placing a value on the French monument removed by the Spanish and lost at Sea.

[seekerGH]

Well then, here is more....

"Was the wreck of La Trinité , the flagship of Dieppois Jean Ribault, discovered in September 2015 off Cape Canaveral, Florida (USA)? The identification of the remains found by 8 meters of bottom is very difficult and even considered contentious by all the dieppe historians contacted. This has attracted a great deal of interest from Pierre Ickowicz , curator of the castle museum in Dieppe. " I'm following this up, " he said . It is a very important discovery for the history of Dieppe and Jean Ribault who built Fort Caroline. Besides, in his collections, the castle-museum already exhibits a wooden piece of this fort, Discovered by American archaeologists in the 1930s, during work in Jacksonville. Since the discovery of the wreck, I have been in touch with Cécile Sauvage of the Department of Underwater and Underwater Archaeological Research (Drassm), an agency under the Ministry of Culture, in order to recover something from the wreck. "

"Marble pillar for proof

The curator of the castle museum Dieppois has strong presumption about the identification of the wreck. In September 2015, Global Marine Exploration (GME) divers, an agency sworn in by the US government, as they search for pieces of rockets taking off from Cape Canaveral, accidentally fall on the remains of a ship. It contained three bronze cannons, nineteen iron and twelve anchors, and a column of marble on which were engraved the French coat of arms. As the French-language newspaper Le Courrier de Floride explains on December 1, 2016, France claims ownership of the wreck of La Trinité . " The negotiations are underway between the Embassy of France and the US government, Continues Pierre Ickowicz. It is the marble column that makes me strongly believe that it is the French ship that has been found. We have a reproduction in the castle-museum. Why a Spanish ship would carry what is probably the most symbolic thing of taking possession of an unknown land that marble pillar? The Spaniards would have either destroyed it or been buried. "



one needs to be careful, as the column in France is a Memorial Column, and much taller that the original....too bad..but it does appear that this one at the Museum is all stone

 

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[seekerGH]

"The Republic of France last week filed legal claim to the shipwreck in the Orlando court, saying that under the U.S. Sunken Military Craft Act, ships that sailed for France still belong to France. That’s so even if more than four centuries have passed, said James A. Goold, the attorney representing France. He’s worked with several countries in numerous high-profile disputes with underwater treasure seekers.

“Admiralty law and international law is very clear that the owner of a ship does not lose its ownership just because the ship sank,” Goold said Tuesday.

I see the issue a bit more clearly now, was this wreck part of the Ribaults vessels going back and forth, (with the columns going back and forth, or cannon and a monument that was captured and on a non-military vessel.

Nobody mentioned Goold was on this...

 

[ARC]

Actually...

Menendez wrote... ""This is done, not as unto Frenchmen, but as unto Lutherans."

De GourgUes wrote... "This is done, not as unto Spaniards, but as unto liars, thieves, and murderers."


Btw...
Fantastic thread.

And would say one of the best threads I have seen on Treasurenet.

Thanks for the updates as well... super cool.

I'm jealous.

 

[ivan salis]

to answer the why would a Spanish vessel be carrying the French coat of arms etched marble pillar section ? easy its the "proof" Spain needed as to why they killed the French in Florida...it was being transported back to Europe to settle any arguments ( its the smoking gun--so to speak) ,,,the "proof" that the French were erecting a pillar in a attempt to claim Spanish lands ...which would allow Spain the right to kill the French that were there as "invaders" --legally speaking

 

[Black Duck]

to answer the why would a Spanish vessel be carrying the French coat of arms etched marble pillar section ? easy its the "proof" Spain needed as to why they killed the French in Florida...it was being transported back to Europe to settle any arguments ( its the smoking gun--so to speak) ,,,the "proof" that the French were erecting a pillar in a attempt to claim Spanish lands ...which would allow Spain the right to kill the French that were there as "invaders" --legally speaking

Guys let me put some facts out here so you can understand

Seeker you are misinformed for one, and what is your dog in this fight, I do not know you are what you have in the way of experience or equipment, but this is not your wreck nor should you be asking permission from the wrong people I might add. GME is a professional proven company not some joker want to be.
We do not need you butting into an on going court issue of which you have no business in. So be warned ( not keep out of this its none of your business.)

This is for the judge to decide.

Just saying why are you butting your nose into this, do u not have your own projects or do you just talk all the time and do nothing.

Seeker what is your name and address I want to send you something.

I will say good find on the stone column with out the bronze plate, but everyone knows that people over state, he was 7 foot tall and he was really 5.5

1. There was a column placed near Fort Caroline in 1562 NOT 1565
2. There was a column placed in Charles Fort 1562 this column had a date of 1562 see Terry Armstrong's drawing, This column was removed by the Spanish in 1564 and taken to Spain "documented" so here is your answer why they did not destroy the one near Fort Caroline. Because sSpain wanted it.
3. There was NO monuments on the Trinite or the manifest of the Trininte "period" again documented and they had needle and tread on the manifest.
4. Nothing GME has found match's the Manifest of any of the ships from Ribault again "Period"
5. France cannot claim what is not theres and they have no proof, none, zero,because its not the Trinite and they named it.
As they told the court all the witness's died 450 years ago joking about it. What kind of people would say this ( oh thats right that lying attorney James Goold.and the lying attorneys at the State of Florida,)
6. Once the Spanish took over Fort Caroline in 1565 the column and cannon form the front and anything else became property of Spain, But we do not know that the Spanish took the column we only know they removed it "period"
7. Their must be proof of what country the ship was from that was caring these items. And it must be military.

Robert H Pritchett III ( Bobby)

 

[seekerGH]

We do not need you butting into an on going court issue of which you have no business in. So be warned ( not keep out of this its none of your business.)

unwise to threaten people.

 

[Black Duck]

unwise to threaten people.

Seeker no threat here, I just asked you for your name and address so i can send you something, how is that a threat ?

Why is this a problem ?

 

[Black Duck]

Oh I see this now, well yes I said it, and it was not a threat.

 

[seekerGH]

What kind of people would say this ( oh thats right that lying attorney James Goold.and the lying attorneys at the State of Florida,)

As a party in a lawsuit, do you think it wise to say this about the opposing sides legal representation on a public forum?

In order to avoid any potential ex-parte communication issues, whatever you want to send me should be done through the proper channels.

 

[Black Duck]

As a party in a lawsuit, do you think it wise to say this about the opposing sides legal representation on a public forum?

In order to avoid any potential ex-parte communication issues, whatever you want to send me should be done through the proper channels.

Saying what is true cannot hurt you,

Ok send me your info then,if you are whom you say you are and since you named the wrong people in France I think not, (you should at least speak the truth on this site)

Seeker you are FOS, and this has gotten of track, we are asking for help in getting a value, honestly not your unprofessional opinion.

I would like to ask you not to post if you have nothing positive to add.

 

[Black Duck]

Saying what is true cannot hurt you,

Ok send me your info then,if you are whom you say you are and since you named the wrong people in France I think not, (you should at least speak the truth on this site)

Seeker you are FOS, and this has gotten of track, we are asking for help in getting a value, honestly not your unprofessional opinion.

I would like to ask you not to post if you have nothing positive to add.

I would also like to add the State of Florida wether through its attorneys or archaeologist have also lied to the Court by submitting false incorrect information
Just plan lying in writing to the court. This has been, can be, and if asked by judge will be proven again.

This is public info, and the facts.

Now can we please get back to the vale of.

Thanks all

 

[seekerGH]

Ok send me your info then,if you are whom you say you are and since you named the wrong people in France I think not, (you should at least speak the truth on this site)

Seeker you are FOS, and this has gotten of track, we are asking for help in getting a value, honestly not your unprofessional opinion.

I would like to ask you not to post if you have nothing positive to add.

Since I have only directly quoted news articles on the subject, and have provided links to the source, how can you state that I provided the wrong person in France?

Continuing to libel and slander me in the public forum? Well, I will assure you, you appear to have chosen the wrong path.

Remember, you asked for an opinion on the valuation, and valuation is based on several factors, including authenticity and provenance. I simply provided several sources which show the column had bronze plaques, and articles on the issue.

I would also like to add the State of Florida wether through its attorneys or archaeologist have also lied to the Court by submitting false incorrect information
Just plan lying in writing to the court. This has been, can be, and if asked by judge will be proven again.

What you don't appear to comprehend, is that you are a party in a litigation, and are calling the opposition attorneys and witnesses liars in a public forum.

Perhaps you should ask your counsel what it means to make accusations, and as noted, make threats in a public forum.

Now, back to your question, remember, you asked for an opinion on the valuation, and valuation is based on several factors, including authenticity and provenance.

On the cannon, these are easy to identify, so according to your research, provide the details typically necessary for a proper valuation.

(on a side note, when there is a red squiggly line below a word, it means you have misspelled it)

 

[Blak bart]

 

[seekerGH]

 

[Tnmountains]

stop arguing and take it to pm.

 

[Black Duck]

stop arguing and take it to pm.

Agreed, it has gotten off track

 

[Black Duck]

GME-VP Ron Alber returns from NY City

Agreed, it has gotten off track

We will have more photos when Ron gets back.
Ron was not allowed to touch painting even in the glass case, so it was hard to get better photos with the lights.
Ron Alber, VP at Global Marine Exploration Inc. returns for NY city

This is the only painting in existence of Florida from Le Moyne known. What does that make it worth ?

Jacques le Moyne de Morgues painted this painting by memory in late-mid 1500s
Extant Sketch. Despite the importance of le Moyne de Morgues’s work for the history of North America, only one original painting by his hand seems to have survived. Scholarly assessment of his artwork has been necessarily based on study of the copies after his work in the forms of prints and sketches. The only extant original painting by the artist probably dates from after his return to Europe. It depicts the 1564 encounter between the French explorer Laudonnière and the Native American chief Athore of the Timucua in northern Florida. Both figures stand before a column at the mouth of the St. John River near present-day Jacksonville, having just exchanged gifts. The column, which displays the arms of France, was erected by Jean Ribault in an earlier 1562 expedition. Native Americans kneel before it reverently, having adorned it with flowers and leaves. The political message of the image is clear: the indigenous population seems to have eagerly embraced French colonial rule. Within a year of the 1564 encounter, however, the Spanish arrived in the area, murdering all the French colonists. They claimed the land for Spain, founding the city of St. Augustine, and French colonization of Florida came to an end.

Jacques de Moyne had planned to publish his account of his expeditions but died 1587. According to de Bry's account, he had bought de Moyne's paintings from his widow in London and used them as a basis for the engravings.

This information is constant with what Ron witnessed in the file at the NY Library where this painting now stands.

A painting from le Moyne of Indians taken gold from a river sold for
108,000, in 1974, In 2017 dollars, $533,653

If the painting of the monument GME discovered went for this, then could the Monument be worth 50-60 million?, What about the rest of the treasures from these unidentifiable shipwreck scatter fields ?

We will have more information soon.

 

[enrada]

There is research, and then there is RESEARCH.
Great job, GME

 

[Black Duck]

Ron in New York at Library with photo and file

Here is Ron in New York

We will have more photos when Ron gets back.
Ron was not allowed to touch painting even in the glass case, so it was hard to get better photos with the lights.
Ron Alber, VP at Global Marine Exploration Inc. returns for NY city

This is the only painting in existence of Florida from Le Moyne known. What does that make it worth ?

Jacques le Moyne de Morgues painted this painting by memory in late-mid 1500s
Extant Sketch. Despite the importance of le Moyne de Morgues’s work for the history of North America, only one original painting by his hand seems to have survived. Scholarly assessment of his artwork has been necessarily based on study of the copies after his work in the forms of prints and sketches. The only extant original painting by the artist probably dates from after his return to Europe. It depicts the 1564 encounter between the French explorer Laudonnière and the Native American chief Athore of the Timucua in northern Florida. Both figures stand before a column at the mouth of the St. John River near present-day Jacksonville, having just exchanged gifts. The column, which displays the arms of France, was erected by Jean Ribault in an earlier 1562 expedition. Native Americans kneel before it reverently, having adorned it with flowers and leaves. The political message of the image is clear: the indigenous population seems to have eagerly embraced French colonial rule. Within a year of the 1564 encounter, however, the Spanish arrived in the area, murdering all the French colonists. They claimed the land for Spain, founding the city of St. Augustine, and French colonization of Florida came to an end.

Jacques de Moyne had planned to publish his account of his expeditions but died 1587. According to de Bry's account, he had bought de Moyne's paintings from his widow in London and used them as a basis for the engravings.

This information is constant with what Ron witnessed in the file at the NY Library where this painting now stands.

A painting from le Moyne of Indians taken gold from a river sold for
108,000, in 1974, In 2017 dollars, $533,653

If the painting of the monument GME discovered went for this, then could the Monument be worth 50-60 million?, What about the rest of the treasures from these unidentifiable shipwreck scatter fields ?

We will have more information soon.

 

[Black Duck]

ops here it is

Here is Ron in New York