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Thread: Spains Claim to Shipwrecks

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  1. #31
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by enrada View Post
    SeekerGH
    Would you by chance happen to be an Archaeologist who believes in the "insitu" philosophy? When I see the word "insitu" I replace it with the words "for job security" and then it all makes sense.


    Nope, "insitu" means they never get off their butts.

    If it were up to them, there would be virtually no wrecks worked at all. No cultural heritage ever brought to light.
    Last edited by Bum Luck; Jun 18, 2017 at 09:48 AM.
    huntsman53 and aquanut like this.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

    "You ask where I live. I cannot tell you. I am a Voyageur, a Chicot, sir. I live everywhere. My grandfather was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. My father was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. I will also die while en route, and another Chicot will take my place. Such is our course of life."

  2. #32
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    Finders Keepers!
    So! The Spanish STOLE these neat items...!
    I shouldn't think then, that they in turn, would
    want to claim the stuff..., as THEIRS! Salvage companies would then have to have a lawyer on the payroll...!
    Stick With It - It's not *IF* you'll find the good stuff , but WHEN!

  3. #33

    Jan 2016
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    SeekerGH
    Would you by chance happen to be an Archaeologist who believes in the "insitu" philosophy? When I see the word "insitu" I replace it with the words "for job security" and then it all makes sense.
    Did you read my post on the issue?


    Imagine an archaeological recovery of a site on land, that used a jet engine pointed downward to blow away the sand and dirt, only leaving the heaviest of objects?
    How would that be viewed by the world? and history?

    I am trying very, very hard to make this work, as a professional. Providing the actual FACTS and CASE LAW on the issues are ONLY the attempt to educate on the issues, and PREVENT the continued degradation of the business by hacks and sh8thouse 'lawyers'.

    You are correct, I do have a lack of empathy for those who are jeopardizing this business, and threaten my business.
    I have, and will continue to attack and protect my interests.

    It is obvious that the whole 'treasure hunter' tag is not regarded as positive for the business, so you need to to decide to be a part of the problem or part of the solution.


    It is obvious that I am a professional in marine recoveries. Call me a marine archaeologist, call me whatever, but I am paid to properly recover sites. I recognize the value of context, and recognize what improper recovery techniques do to jeopardize the value of the recovery, not to mention the potentially valuable items that may be missed.
    I do not, and will not work for a percentage of the value nor the recovery. My projects are not based on the ability to sell the recovery to get paid. The rate is set, and I am paid my same rate if they find $10 or $100 million. I live comfortably with this business model.
    I do not need to splash headlines in attempts to create pretentious values to attract investors.
    when I bring you breakfast in bed, a simple thank you is all I want...not all of this "how did you get in my house" nonsense...

  4. #34
    Charter Member
    Aquanut

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    Quote Originally Posted by seekerGH View Post
    Did you read my post on the issue?


    Imagine an archaeological recovery of a site on land, that used a jet engine pointed downward to blow away the sand and dirt, only leaving the heaviest of objects?
    How would that be viewed by the world? and history?

    I am trying very, very hard to make this work, as a professional. Providing the actual FACTS and CASE LAW on the issues are ONLY the attempt to educate on the issues, and PREVENT the continued degradation of the business by hacks and sh8thouse 'lawyers'.

    You are correct, I do have a lack of empathy for those who are jeopardizing this business, and threaten my business.
    I have, and will continue to attack and protect my interests.

    It is obvious that the whole 'treasure hunter' tag is not regarded as positive for the business, so you need to to decide to be a part of the problem or part of the solution.


    It is obvious that I am a professional in marine recoveries. Call me a marine archaeologist, call me whatever, but I am paid to properly recover sites. I recognize the value of context, and recognize what improper recovery techniques do to jeopardize the value of the recovery, not to mention the potentially valuable items that may be missed.
    I do not, and will not work for a percentage of the value nor the recovery. My projects are not based on the ability to sell the recovery to get paid. The rate is set, and I am paid my same rate if they find $10 or $100 million. I live comfortably with this business model.
    I do not need to splash headlines in attempts to create pretentious values to attract investors.
    Then, am I correct in determining that you are somehow receiving tax dollars for your subsistence?

    By the way, comparing a jet engine on land to a 3 knot column of water in a "dynamic marine environment" is not even close to apples and oranges. Have you ever even experienced being under a blower? Sometimes it is simply to supply clear surface water to the murky layer at the bottom. The amount of overburden can also be controlled. Airlifts, dredges and ping pong paddles simply won't get the job done efficiently when cost vs reward is in the mix.
    AARC, GreenHiker and thetigers2 like this.

  5. #35
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    Meh, just don't tell anyone.
    "Ability is nothing without opportunity" - Napoleon Bonaparte

  6. #36
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    ARC / Aquaman

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyemustdigtreasure View Post
    Finders Keepers!
    So! The Spanish STOLE these neat items...!
    I shouldn't think then, that they in turn, would
    want to claim the stuff..., as THEIRS! Salvage companies would then have to have a lawyer on the payroll...!
    Good comment actually...
    And has been a point of mine since the dawn of my time in this interest of mine.

    What kills me... and I mean really peeves me...

    In MOST cases concerning sunken valuables of this time period... the ownership of said items is viewed as belonging to the ships owners... when in fact SOME items that may be aboard the vessel may in fact be "stolen" or "acquired" by illegal means.

    Returning these items to these "claimants" is like returning a stolen stereo to the burglar who stole it because he was last in possession of it.

    Personally... I have always believed in... "want it back after someone else has expended the time, money and effort to recover it"... then pay the piper for his work.

    Otherwise... you are in jeopardy of future discoveries being looted and ripped clean ... and possibly never been "found" at all.

    This IMO will be the case more and more as the grip tightens on lost historical items.

    There is no "incentive" for anyone to report or share... let alone hand over anything willingly knowing that all can be lost or taken from the discoverer.
    Have permission... Fill holes... Dispose of trash.

  7. #37
    us
    Frank

    Jun 2013
    Jefferson City, Tennessee
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    Quote Originally Posted by AARC View Post
    Good comment actually...
    And has been a point of mine since the dawn of my time in this interest of mine.

    What kills me... and I mean really peeves me...

    In MOST cases concerning sunken valuables of this time period... the ownership of said items is viewed as belonging to the ships owners... when in fact SOME items that may be aboard the vessel may in fact be "stolen" or "acquired" by illegal means.

    Returning these items to these "claimants" is like returning a stolen stereo to the burglar who stole it because he was last in possession of it.

    Personally... I have always believed in... "want it back after someone else has expended the time, money and effort to recover it"... then pay the piper for his work.

    Otherwise... you are in jeopardy of future discoveries being looted and ripped clean ... and possibly never been "found" at all.

    This IMO will be the case more and more as the grip tightens on lost historical items.

    There is no "incentive" for anyone to report or share... let alone hand over anything willingly knowing that all can be lost or taken from the discoverer.
    The State of Florida and it's Archaeologists, claims by Spain to nearly every ship found along and off the Florida coasts and the Laws and Treaties concerning salvageability of shipwrecks and ownership can be thanked for such an environment. Sure, there are treasure hunters that are pirates that have looted many a treasure but Treasure Salvors most of which employee well respected Archaeologists, should never be compared to the former and not be hindered from recording & documenting the shipwrecks they find, recording & documenting the finds and from recovering the shipwreck finds which can be brought to the surface and displayed in museums and allows the Treasure Salvors some compensation for the hard and expensive service they provide. If the State of Florida, Spain and even the Federal Government continue to enact laws, rules, policies and treaties that deny Treasure Salvor businesses from making money to break even or possibly make a profit, then there may come a time when there will be armed confrontations at sea. I am amazed that there has not been any so far! I guess it is possible that there have been a few but none that I am aware of.


    Frank
    eyemustdigtreasure and AARC like this.
    U.S. Army Veteran (Nov. 27, 1972 to Mar. 30, 1978) and Retired Federal Government Employee with total Federal Service of over 38 years. I am a Coin Collector and Coin Researcher at heart with my main interests in Error & Variety Coins. However, I also love Gold and Gem Prospecting, Metal Detecting when and where I can, Ginseng and other Herb Hunting, Long Range Shooting, Hunting and Fishing.

  8. #38

    Jan 2016
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    Then, am I correct in determining that you are somehow receiving tax dollars for your subsistence?
    If one counts recoveries paid for by governments or a military's of a Sovereign Nation, then I guess that would be valid, that is just a part of the business model.

    In essence, looking at the situation in Florida, working leases on State property for a percentage, are those not working for tax dollars?

    There is no "incentive" for anyone to report or share... let alone hand over anything willingly knowing that all can be lost or taken from the discoverer.
    One cannot imagine why there is an issue with this statement. Again, in the example of Florida, working a State owned lease, where the State gives you a percentage of the recovery, yet you feel there is no reason to report what you have found?
    If you are working a site on land with permission from the landowner for a percentage, do you tell them if you found something of value, or hide the find?
    Last edited by seekerGH; Jun 20, 2017 at 10:36 PM.
    when I bring you breakfast in bed, a simple thank you is all I want...not all of this "how did you get in my house" nonsense...

  9. #39
    Charter Member
    Aquanut

    Jul 2005
    Ft Myers, Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by seekerGH View Post
    In essence, looking at the situation in Florida, working leases on State property for a percentage, are those not working for tax dollars?



    One cannot imagine why there is an issue with this statement. Again, in the example of Florida, working a State owned lease, where the State gives you a percentage of the recovery, yet you feel there is no reason to report what you have found?

    First of all, the "state" doesn't give us a percentage. We agree to give the state a percentage. Secondly, it doesn't cost the state a penny in tax dollars for us to work a site. The state is the beneficiary of our work, not the other way around. The fact that leases are involved is a state's way of control. They don't own the submerged lands, they "control" them in the name of public trust. Thirdly, when has the state issued a new recovery permit in the last 25 years? They haven't and they even back stab the people who have applied, so why bother? You are obviously on the wrong forum here.

  10. #40
    us
    Dec 2010
    back on the 1715!!
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    and I'll add.... Most of "the situations in Florida" are under a Federal Admiralty. By the federal law there is binding agreement to work/ recover artifacts from those sites and ANY entity impeding the work is in violation of Federal law.
    "The finding of a great treasure from the days of the Spanish Main is not the cherished dream of only the United States and Florida citizens; countless peoples from other lands have shared such thoughts. It would amaze and surprise most citizens of this country, when their dream, at the greatest of costs, was realized, the agents of respective governments would, on the most flimsy grounds, lay claim to the treasure."
    ---Judge William O.Mehrtens
    1978 Ruling Against the State of Florida

  11. #41
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntsman53 View Post
    The State of Florida and it's Archaeologists, claims by Spain to nearly every ship found along and off the Florida coasts and the Laws and Treaties concerning salvageability of shipwrecks and ownership can be thanked for such an environment. Sure, there are treasure hunters that are pirates that have looted many a treasure but Treasure Salvors most of which employee well respected Archaeologists, should never be compared to the former and not be hindered from recording & documenting the shipwrecks they find, recording & documenting the finds and from recovering the shipwreck finds which can be brought to the surface and displayed in museums and allows the Treasure Salvors some compensation for the hard and expensive service they provide. If the State of Florida, Spain and even the Federal Government continue to enact laws, rules, policies and treaties that deny Treasure Salvor businesses from making money to break even or possibly make a profit, then there may come a time when there will be armed confrontations at sea. I am amazed that there has not been any so far! I guess it is possible that there have been a few but none that I am aware of.


    Frank
    Frank, you are right.
    There are professional salvage outfits,
    that do the science, a carefully recover the treasure, AND the Public
    gets to share in the history, by seeing real Sunken Treasure - stuff that dreams are made of...!
    But, there are greedy state officials, that think they deal with this kinda thing often - so, THEY wrote the laws
    for themselves - "everybody should be getting their hands in on it, right?" (NOT!)
    - Or, the-guys-who-actually-do-the-research, spend the time and money, and sometimes risk their lives to do the recovery,
    get all the loot...!
    I like the latter of the two choices...!
    huntsman53 and aquanut like this.
    Stick With It - It's not *IF* you'll find the good stuff , but WHEN!

  12. #42
    us
    Dec 2009
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    Spain abandoned and waived claim to all shipwrecks prior to 1648

    Quote Originally Posted by Salvor6 View Post
    Spain signed a treaty relinquishing all claims to their shipwrecks prior to 1750. I would appreciate any links to verification of this treaty. I know there is a post about this on Tnet but I can't find it.

    In the Peace of Westphalia, the Treaty of Munster and the Treaty of Osnabruck to end the Thirty Year's War, Spain waived all rights to shipwrecks at the signing in 1648. Article II of the Treaty of Westphalia:

    That there shall be on the one side and the other a perpetual Oblivion, Amnesty, or Pardon of all that has been committed since the beginning of these Troubles, in what place, or what manner soever the Hostilitys have been practis'd, in such a manner, that no body, under any pretext whatsoever, shall practice any Acts of Hostility, entertain any Enmity, or cause any Trouble to each other; neither as to Persons, Effects and Securitys, neither of themselves or by others, neither privately nor openly, neither directly nor indirectly, neither under the colour of Right, nor by the way of Deed, either within or without the extent of the Empire, notwithstanding all Covenants made before to the contrary: That they shall not act, or permit to be acted, any wrong or injury to any whatsoever; but that all that has pass'd on the one side, and the other, as well before as during the War, in Words, Writings, and Outrageous Actions, in Violences, Hostilitys, Damages and Expences, without any respect to Persons or Things, shall be entirely abolish'd in such a manner that all that might be demanded of, or pretended to, by each other on that behalf, shall be bury'd in eternal Oblivion.

    (Full text: Avalon Project - Treaty of Westphalia )

    Not only that, Modern Day Sovereighnty did not come into being until the Peace of Westphalia and the Treaties where the principles of Sovereignty, defined borders and complete autonomy to worship and govern without any outside interference (the Catholic Church and other monarchs) were first publically articulated. Virtually ALL historians and political scientist agree that this was birth of Sovereignty, thus:

    1. Spain was not a Modern Day Sovereign, as it did not exist before then and therefore Spain has no standing as such to that period in US Court.

    2. Likewise, Sovereign Immunity had never been practiced, did not exist before then and therefore could no be asserted as a right to that period

    3. Before 1648, Spain was a quasi-religious entity and therefore could not have standing as Sovereign and the US Court could not hear religious edicts or doctrine as law

    4. The present day world order, that upon which our United Nations is founded is called "The Westphalian System" . After 1648, the first country to receive Diplomatic Recognition from that community of nations that were a party to the Peace of Westphalia, was the Russian Empire in 1721 and we were off and running.



    Everything Peace of Westphalia


    By its own word, Spain's charter of authority was from the Church and God, the Supreme Sovereign:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanis...rement_of_1513


    Please comment. There is a line in the sand, it just has not been drawn. If not the world will come apart at the seams.

  13. #43
    us
    Dec 2009
    3
    6 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    In the Peace of Westphalia, the Treaty of Munster and the Treaty of Osnabruck to end the Thirty Year's War, Spain waived all rights to shipwrecks at the signing in 1648. Article II of the Treaty of Westphalia:

    That there shall be on the one side and the other a perpetual Oblivion, Amnesty, or Pardon of all that has been committed since the beginning of these Troubles, in what place, or what manner soever the Hostilitys have been practis'd, in such a manner, that no body, under any pretext whatsoever, shall practice any Acts of Hostility, entertain any Enmity, or cause any Trouble to each other; neither as to Persons, Effects and Securitys, neither of themselves or by others, neither privately nor openly, neither directly nor indirectly, neither under the colour of Right, nor by the way of Deed, either within or without the extent of the Empire, notwithstanding all Covenants made before to the contrary: That they shall not act, or permit to be acted, any wrong or injury to any whatsoever; but that all that has pass'd on the one side, and the other, as well before as during the War, in Words, Writings, and Outrageous Actions, in Violences, Hostilitys, Damages and Expences, without any respect to Persons or Things, shall be entirely abolish'd in such a manner that all that might be demanded of, or pretended to, by each other on that behalf, shall be bury'd in eternal Oblivion.

    (Full text:
    Avalon Project - Treaty of Westphalia )

    Not only that, Modern Day Sovereighnty did not come into being until the Peace of Westphalia and the Treaties where the principles of Sovereignty, defined borders and complete autonomy to worship and govern without any outside interference (the Catholic Church and other monarchs) were first publically articulated. Virtually ALL historians and political scientist agree that this was birth of Sovereignty, thus:

    1. Spain was not a Modern Day Sovereign, as it did not exist before then and therefore Spain has
    no standing as such to that period in US Court.

    2. Likewise, Sovereign Immunity had never been practiced, did not exist before then and therefore could no be asserted as a right to that period

    3. Before 1648, Spain was a quasi-religious entity and therefore could not have standing as Sovereign and the US Court could not hear religious edicts or doctrine as law

    4. The present day world order, that upon which our United Nations is founded is called "The Westphalian System" . After 1648, the first country to receive Diplomatic Recognition from that community of nations that were a party to the Peace of Westphalia, was the Russian Empire in 1721 and we were off and running.



    Everything Peace of Westphalia


    By its own word, Spain's charter of authority was from the Church and God, the Supreme Sovereign:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanis...rement_of_1513


    Please comment. There is a line in the sand, it just has not been drawn. If not the world will come apart at the seams.
    Salvor6 and AARC like this.

  14. #44
    Charter Member
    us
    Pirate of the Martires

    Feb 2005
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    Good Job Mag. I'm going to save that for future reference.

  15. #45
    us
    Jul 2016
    Florida
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    me too! thanks

 

 
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