San Jose Investor

[Salvor6]

This is the guy that owns a part of the San Jose. He is Canadian. Anyone recognize him?

 

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[Urban Legend]

I downloaded the pic and did an image search thru Google..
I got nothing..... I think the guy is a ghost ?
It was worth a shot..

 

[Marine Archaeology Int.]

The San Jose has the potential for being the most important Spanish galleon ever found and no one seems to know who are the guys that made it happen. Pretty incredible. Good for them. The government of Colombia will make that information public in 60 days.

Yesterday Dr. Jose Manuel Vargas, legal attache for the Ministry of Culture, and Dr. Ernesto Montenegro, Director of Cultural Patrimony, gave an introduction to the project open to the public at the Museo Naval del Caribe, Cartagena. They explained the many legal, technical and academic considerations of the recovery, going into a lot of detail as to how the excavation will be conducted. So far, Colombia seems to be doing an impeccable job as they carry on with their first underwater recovery venture.

It has been pretty well documented so far that Sea Search Armada's original coordinates (1982) do not match the newly discovered site (they are off by many miles). They are still putting up a fight though under the concept of "immediate vicinity" (close enough). However, their initial sonar imagines and video clearly do not represent the same site discovered in late 2015 by the Colombian government and a consortium of American investors.

 

[seekerGH]

This is the guy that owns a part of the San Jose. He is Canadian. Anyone recognize him?

You sure about that, I think that, as Marine Arch stated, the current wreck is all Colombia's. Is this person an investor in part of SSA?

Sea Search Armada (SSA) has the sole objective of locating and recovering the Spanish galleon San Jose (1708). It is a partnership of more than 100 investors, mostly U.S. citizens, in 16 investment entities.

 

[ropesfish]

This may shed some light...but then again, in this deal nothing seems to be clear.
Sobre el galeón San José, ?el Presidente está mal informado? | Zona Cero
or maybe it won't. The gentleman in the above picture posted by SeekerGH is Sea Search's attorney, Danilo Devis Pereira.
Here is a Google translation of that article:
" The episodes that have been known in the last week after the information revealed on Friday December 4 by President Juan Manuel Santos in the sense that the Galeón San José was found in waters of the Colombian Caribbean, reveal what would be the beginning of a New and prolonged series around the theme that dates back more than three centuries.

After President Santos announced that the San José had been found, there was the pronouncement of the Sea Search, Spanish historians, the Spanish Government and the Iberian press, a new chapter begins on the veracity of the coordinates that In 1982 gave Glocca Morra and whose rights acquired explorer Sea Search Armada.


This Friday President Juan Manuel Santos said that "those coordinates" (of the Sea Search) "do not correspond" to the place where the galleon was found.


In the meantime, attorney Danilo Devis Pereira, legal representative in Colombia of the Sea Search Armada, replied. "I think the President is misinformed," he said.


"What I have proposed to Mr. President in a letter that we sent him yesterday is that we solve this problem of 30 years in 15 days," he noted. "We are going to sea areas denounced by Sea Search. If the shipwreck is not there, then we give up all claim. What we want is a quick, immediate and good faith solution to this issue. It is not worth discussing a location when we can go there and determine if it is or is not. It's as simple as that. Why discuss through speeches, whether it is or is not ?, then we go to the site, that simple.


Regarding an eventual certainty of the National Government in the sense that the coordinates where the galleon was found are others, the lawyer defended himself and said that "in 1982 the law authorized technical limitations to indicate coordinates with margins of error."


"All the denunciations of the time were of that tone. Some said the shipwreck found approximately in these coordinates, others said, in the vicinity of such coordinates, or is in the immediate coordinates of these coordinates. This was accepted by the Dimar and the Supreme Court, "said Devis.


The spokesman of the Sea Search insisted that "what happens is that the President have been read to partially read a sentence without completing. We read if the shipwreck is in the coordinates and the report says that these are the coordinates, they are only the starting point to locate the shipwreck.


He asked the Colombian Government to "not insist" on that claim. "Let's go to the site. If you are on the site reported by Sea Search, great and if you are not. We quit. So why insist. "


He also said that there is a formal commitment to "waive the right that the Supreme Court gave us if we prove that the discovery denounced by the President, does not match the sea area denounced by Sea Search."


On the editorial of the newspaper El País that asked the Spanish Government to waive any claim on the galleon Danilo Devis said that "Spain has nothing to do on this ride. This issue is between the Government and Sea Search Armada. Colombia did not sign the Unesco Convention on Underwater Heritage. If he did not sign, he is not obliged in any way to recognize any right to Spain on that galleon. In addition, according to the Supreme Court, half of the galleon is private property. From Sea Search Armada. And the government can not negotiate private property. "

 

[Mackaydon]

Marx's words kept ringing in my ears: "Treasure is trouble."
So true--personal experience included.
Don.......

 

[ropesfish]

Marx's words kept ringing in my ears: "Treasure is trouble."
So true--personal experience included.
Don.......

Indeed it is...but what part of an adventurous life is trouble-free? Conflict, danger, risk, uncertainty, large predators in poor visibility, a poor memory for women's names, the constant possibility of complete and utter financial ruin...without these, the adrenaline just doesn't flow. Even Helen Keller said that "life is either a daring adventure or nothing".
Questing...it's what we do and as far as I can tell, most of us carry that til we "shuffle off this mortal coil" .
Maximum Bob Shakespeare had Hamlet say it:

"To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life." (3.1.56-69)


​

 

[seekerGH]

"Spain has nothing to do on this ride. This issue is between the Government and Sea Search Armada. Colombia did not sign the Unesco Convention on Underwater Heritage. If he did not sign, he is not obliged in any way to recognize any right to Spain on that galleon. In addition, according to the Supreme Court, half of the galleon is private property. From Sea Search Armada. And the government can not negotiate private property. "

UNESCO convention has nothing to do with ownership determination, nor the rights of owners.
Not sure what he means by the Supreme Court ruling on ownership, as Colombia is stating this is not the same site as searched by SSA. The US Courts ruled against SSA, and ruled it belongs to Colombia.

I am also not clear on what determination states that the San Jose, if it is the San Jose wreck, includes private property. Perhaps SSA should have gone for the 5%, at least it was something.

The supreme court ruled that Colombia holds the rights to items deemed to be "national cultural patrimony". Anything else will be halved between the US salvage company Sea Search Armada and Colombia. While Colombia agrees, it also states that 100% is Colombian cultural patrimony. I think a claim of 50% of the part that Colombia does not claim, while on the surface may seem viable to SSA, or some sort of win, well, is quite the dubious claim to valuate.
Colombia, is of course in charge of the recovery, so it will be up to them to decide, and I am pretty sure where that will go. On the flip side, given the circumstances of the day, and the voyage, Peru may be able to claim what Colombia does not.

EDIT:

Spain filed on the San Jose under UNCLOS, not UNESCO UPCH.

While Colombia is a signatory to UNCLOS, it has not ratified UNCLOS, therefore is not a party, so while subject, is not bound.
Not sure what the UN accords mean to anything or anyone anyways.

Should Colombia decide to recover the wreck, the artifacts will provide the evidence, and Peru and Spain can intervene in the World Court.

This wont be over with for a long, long time. The 'investor' Colombia is looking for to participate in the recovery is a complete fool if they do not work for cash.

 

[seekerGH]

salvor 6, after a bit of searching connections, I believe this is your "investor"

Urban Legend, I cant imagine why facial recognition on Google did not work!



On a side note, a few years ago, didnt IMDI claim they found the San Jose? That was off the Coast of Panama? I remember a sh**storm.

IMDI spent about 10 years fighting legal challenges. The company prevailed, and, with permits and court verdicts in hand, the subaquatic dig for the San José went on. Panamanian government inspectors supervised the project, and a “world class” conservation lab was built to log and preserve each discovery, the company said.

Among other items, divers found gold and diamond jewelry, pottery, and nearly 10,000 silver coins, worth up to $1,000 each. Only one 60-pound silver bar was recovered. Based on the contract, the government got to keep anything it considered historically relevant, plus 35 percent of everything else.

Some Panamanian government officials objected to the deal and brought in Unesco, which sent a task force to Panama to review the project. Excavation stopped. Even after the haul was divided and the government received its share, the country’s comptroller noted a number of irregularities in the contract, questioned its validity and requested an investigation into how it had been obtained.
“The government stopped us, even though we did everything by the book,” said Alberto Vásquez, an IMDI vice president.

This summer, when Mr. Vásquez emerged from a bank in Panama City where he had gone to retrieve some of the company’s share of coins that were stored in a safe deposit box, the government seized 3,000 coins, saying he did not have permission to transport it.

In September, Captain Porter, who led an expedition, returned to Florida with his 100 coins, worth about $500 or $600 each. The United States Border Patrol boarded his salvage vessel, searched it with dogs for six hours and confiscated the coins.

Citing an open investigation, Nestor J. Yglesias, a spokesman for Homeland Security Investigations, the criminal investigation arm of United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement, declined to comment.

Was this ever resolved?

Based on the contract, the government got to keep anything it considered historically relevant, plus 35 percent of everything else.

Sounds a bit familar...how did that contract work out for them?

 

[old man]

Seeker, it worked out Good for Dan Porter. The US Court awarded him the treasure.

 

[Marine Archaeology Int.]

A little bit of clarity. These are the facts so far on the discovery of the San Jose:1) Colombia won in US court the rights to its shipwrecks, in a case brought by SSA and the shipwreck of the San Jose; 2) SSA won in Colombian court (all the way up the Supreme Court) its rights to a certain anomaly, allegedly the San Jose, in a set of coordinates found in 1982; 3) the Colombian government, led by an American group, conducted a new search in 2015 and found the wreck of the San Jose several miles from the original coordinates of SSA (I had a chance to review the pictures taken of the new site, including a very detail mosaic composition of 6000 frames taken from 30" over the wreck site) and there is no doubt that this last discovery is the San Jose); SSA now claims that the new discovery belongs to them, even though it is several miles away from the original coordinates (1982) based on the concept of "immediate vicinity" (close enough); analysis of the pictures (ROV) and side scan sonar produced by SSA in 1982 of their anomaly and comparison with the new set of pictures (2015) also clearly defines the two sites as to be completely different in nature.

Experts seem to agree that both sites are different and too far apart to be part of the same discovery. They also believe that there is very little chance SSA will prevail legally under their immediate vicinity argument. The exact distance between the two site is a closed held secret but allegedly we are talking many miles. The American investors have rights to up to 50% of the items that are not "submerge cultural patrimony of Colombia". The new law (2013) establishes that coins, bars, precious gems in their natural state and pearls "are not cultural patrimony of Colombia".

 

[Darren in NC]

Seeker, it worked out Good for Dan Porter. The US Court awarded him the treasure.

Thrilled to hear this, Ed. I had not heard that update.

 

[aquanut]

Thrilled to hear this, Ed. I had not heard that update.

That's kind of relative. Panama still screwed them over. I still can't believe the U.S. government took Panama's side, confiscated the treasure and forced Dan to court. Too bad Panamanian government officials can't be tried for theft.

 

[seekerGH]

That's kind of relative. Panama still screwed them over.

Exactly. Similar circumstances (and governments) Anyone who looks at this contract has to be crazy.

The other point is that now it appears there are at least 3 San Jose wrecksites!

MAI. Thank you for the information. In regards to the new law of 2013 you reference, whos law is this? Curious, the latest find, is that all Colombia government, or is the American search company a partner? Who was the American team?

 

[ropesfish]

That's kind of relative. Panama still screwed them over. I still can't believe the U.S. government took Panama's side, confiscated the treasure and forced Dan to court. Too bad Panamanian government officials can't be tried for theft.

No joke...Chased him down in the Bahamas with a USCG vessel (as I recall) to enforce some corrupt Panamanian ripoff artist's claim of theft. That'll teach you to turn on that AIS.
Noriega was a crook, but at least he owned up to it, unlike the present US and Panamanian government weasels.

 

[Marine Archaeology Int.]

Exactly. Similar circumstances (and governments) Anyone who looks at this contract has to be crazy.

The other point is that now it appears there are at least 3 San Jose wrecksites!

MAI. Thank you for the information. In regards to the new law of 2013 you reference, whos law is this? Curious, the latest find, is that all Colombia government, or is the American search company a partner? Who was the American team?

Colombian Law 1675 (2013) and its follow up 1698 (2014) or "Reglamento" are the legislation that regulates the search and salvage of historical shipwrecks in Colombian territorial waters. They complement the APP Law (Asociation Public Private) which is the legal framework under which the Colombian government prefers to structure shipwrecks' project. The process is complicated but fair and allows anybody not requesting public funding to bring a project to the government (APPs were originally designed to build roads, bridges and things like that).

The "American team" is a close held secret. Apparently the team is conformed by a Canadian company and an American who president Santos introduced as an "underwater archaeologist" and a "historian" and who is the person that found a map at the Library of Congress Map Room and took it all the way to the president and convinced his administration to grant them an Exploration Permit, or "pre-factibility" phase (fase de pre-factibilidad) according to APP rules.

 

[Marine Archaeology Int.]

Exactly. Similar circumstances (and governments) Anyone who looks at this contract has to be crazy.

The other point is that now it appears there are at least 3 San Jose wrecksites!

MAI. Thank you for the information. In regards to the new law of 2013 you reference, whos law is this? Curious, the latest find, is that all Colombia government, or is the American search company a partner? Who was the American team?

The American team, or originator of the project to use the correct term, is very much a partner. If their APP is approved, and they are way up into getting that done, it will be their project. They will manage all aspects of it, including preservation and the museum. They are entitled to up to 50% of the items that are not submerged cultural patrimony of Colombia. Again, coins, bars, precious gems in their natural state and pearls ARE NOT considered submerge cultural patrimony according to Article 3 of the 1675 law (2013).

 

[Urban Legend]

I know that this is a little off the subject...
Just wondering how much investment is it going to involve to conduct the deep water salvage operation off Columbia ?
Will it be done with sub's and robots ...or deep water divers using rebreathers ?
I know it ain't gonna be cheap...
And then there's always the jumbo Humbolt squids ...

 

[Salvor6]

Compared to the deep water excavations that Odyssey has done, it will cost 2 to 4 million.
Humbolt squid are found only in the Pacific.

 

[seekerGH]

MAI, thank you for the information. Seems like the project, while advertised as a formality, is pretty much locked up.

On the time and effort for the recovery.

Odyssey spent $3 Million a month just for the Swire Seabed lease. They charged almost $30 Million to recover the Garisoppa. For the SS Central America, they charged almost $7 million. ($50,000 per day for the ship alone)

The San Jose, if Colombia is looking to provide the archeological recovery they are claiming, this will take a very long time, likely at least 3 seasons. That cost would be closer to $50 to 100 million. That is just for the recovery effort. Conservation of the artifacts will be another $10-$20 Million.