Colombia in Dispute over Shipwreck Treasures

[Marine Archaeology Int.]

Our friend Panfilo, who participates regularly in this forum, is an emerald expert. He has argued to me (persuadably) that even though, like you suggest, the SJ did not have a chance to load some of the gold and emeralds from Nueva Granada, that the fair that year at Portobelo was so large and unusual, with so much contraband loaded on the SJ, that he would expect that many emeralds should be found on the wreck. According to Colombian Law, only rough or natural gems are subject to a division with the government. Polished emeralds and jewelry as depicted in the picture from Seeker GH, will be technical defined as submerged cultural patrimony of the country and therefore not subject to division.

 

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[Marine Archaeology Int.]

Au Dreamers, thank you for your comments. I agree with your assessment. However, a large portion of the treasure cargo returning to Spain were in the form of silver bars, not coins. As much as we can market today a 1 oz silver coin for it numismatic and historical value ($170), rendering a 100 times more valuable than its current metal value ($17), I'm pretty sure that the same proportion cannot be applied to silver bars. In my experience, I have seen silver bars going for twice, or some time three times, their current metal value, but not much more than that. This will move down the average value of a peso on any given shipwreck treasure calculation considerably. Other factors, like gold, will move it up. Still, the question remains: when we say that a vessel was carrying $1 million pesos, how much in the opinion of this forum is that worth today?

 

[Boatlode]

I worked "Emerald City" on the Atocha site as a subcontractor in 1992. The emeralds we found were all of exceptionally good quality.

I heard that the total value of the emeralds salvaged from the Atocha exceeded the total value of the silver.

 

[Salvor6]

I heard that the total value of the emeralds salvaged from the Atocha exceeded the total value of the silver.

I don't know about that. Are you counting all the silver coins too?

 

[Boatlode]

I don't know about that. Are you counting all the silver coins too?

You got me there, Pete. I'm not sure. When I heard that I thought it meant everything, but maybe it was just the 30 tons of silver bars. I wish I could remember who told me that.
Mike

 

[seekerGH]

I worked "Emerald City" on the Atocha site as a subcontractor in 1992. The emeralds we found were all of exceptionally good quality. They were sold at a premium with a certificate of authenticafancy since they came from a famous shipwreck.

Sold at a premium, and exceptional quality, have no bearing in market terms, its all relative. A famous shipwreck, well, it was famous for being famous, but like the Kardashians, there is little value over time, especially since the generation that remembers why the Atocha was famous is fading.

The image shown is from a shipwreck, and is of little value in todays cut market. Previously, a large green stone was all it took, not the gem quality we know of today.
Look at many of the Crown Jewels, just really large gaudy stones, but cut/clarity....

View attachment 1547752

MAI....The Atocha recovery seems to have been widely misrepresented in the value, reportedly valued at $400 million, but in reality only selling for $80 Million? (and quite a bit still for sale?)

Look at the coins from other wrecks, such as the El Cazador or Sao Jose.....why is the Atocha famous? Because......

As you are wondering, what are the values for bars and coins, you can get a silver El Cazador 8 Reale coin in a NGC box with Cert for $20 on eBay....

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Sold at a premium, and exceptional quality, have no bearing in market terms, its all relative. A famous shipwreck, well, it was famous for being famous, but like the Kardashians, there is little value over time, especially since the generation that remembers why the Atocha was famous is fading.

The image shown is from a shipwreck, and is of little value in todays cut market. Previously, a large green stone was all it took, not the gem quality we know of today.
Look at many of the Crown Jewels, just really large gaudy stones, but cut/clarity....

View attachment 1547752

MAI....The Atocha recovery seems to have been widely misrepresented in the value, reportedly valued at $400 million, but in reality only selling for $80 Million? (and quite a bit still for sale?)

Look at the coins from other wrecks, such as the El Cazador or Sao Jose.....why is the Atocha famous? Because......

As you are wondering, what are the values for bars and coins, you can get a silver El Cazador 8 Reale coin in a NGC box with Cert for $20 on eBay....

You are seriously lacking knowledge of the Atocha to make such a post.

 

[ropesfish]

Au Dreamers, thank you for your comments. I agree with your assessment. However, a large portion of the treasure cargo returning to Spain were in the form of silver bars, not coins. As much as we can market today a 1 oz silver coin for it numismatic and historical value ($170), rendering a 100 times more valuable than its current metal value ($17), I'm pretty sure that the same proportion cannot be applied to silver bars. In my experience, I have seen silver bars going for twice, or some time three times, their current metal value, but not much more than that. This will move down the average value of a peso on any given shipwreck treasure calculation considerably. Other factors, like gold, will move it up. Still, the question remains: when we say that a vessel was carrying $1 million pesos, how much in the opinion of this forum is that worth today?

I am no currency expert, but here's the best estimate I could find online:
I looked at the value of 31 gms of silver in 1660's labor compared to the labor value today. I believe that is a closer estimate of worth than merely the metal value.
[FONT=&quot]

Historicalstatistics.org:[/FONT]​

​

[FONT=&quot]

Historical currency converter (test version 1.0)[/FONT]​

​

[FONT=&quot]

Question:
What is the equivalent of 31 gram silver [1658-2015] in year 1660 in the currency of US dollar [1791-2015] in year 2015?[/FONT]​

​

[FONT=&quot]31 gram silver [1658-2015] in year 1660 could buy the same amount of consumer goods and services in Sweden as 55.74934775620069 US dollar [1791-2015] could buy in Sweden in year 2015. This comparison should be used if the purpose of the analysis is to compare absolute worth over time rather than relative worth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Another way to compare the worth of money in different periods is to estimate how much labour power an amount of money could buy. 31 gram silver [1658-2015] in year 1660 was the amount a male worker in Sweden received in wage for 58.72159415074811 hours work. A male worker in Sweden in 2015 received 1456.3390573986171 US dollar [1791-2015] in wage for 58.72159415074811 hours worked. This comparison should be used if the purpose of the analysis is to compare relative worth over time rather than absolute worth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31 gram silver [1658-2015] in year 1660 could buy 2.16317634674126 gram gold. The price of 2.16317634674126 gram gold in year 2015 was 80.67954489257158 US dollar [1791-2015].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31 gram silver [1658-2015] in year 1660 could buy 30.999999999999996 gram silver. The price of 30.999999999999996 gram silver in year 2015 was 15.62783489207864 US dollar [1791-2015].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

By Rodney Edvinsson,
(Associate professor, Stockholm University, Pro Futura Fellow, Swedish Collegium for Advanced Study[/FONT]​

​

It's a reasonable jumping off place at least...1,000,000 pesos in 1660 would be roughly equal to (1,456 x 1,000,000 = 1,456,000,000 USD)

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Au Dreamers, thank you for your comments. I agree with your assessment. However, a large portion of the treasure cargo returning to Spain were in the form of silver bars, not coins. As much as we can market today a 1 oz silver coin for it numismatic and historical value ($170), rendering a 100 times more valuable than its current metal value ($17), I'm pretty sure that the same proportion cannot be applied to silver bars. In my experience, I have seen silver bars going for twice, or some time three times, their current metal value, but not much more than that. This will move down the average value of a peso on any given shipwreck treasure calculation considerably. Other factors, like gold, will move it up. Still, the question remains: when we say that a vessel was carrying $1 million pesos, how much in the opinion of this forum is that worth today?

What the market will bear ....

Large silver bar #247, 89 lb 0.5 oz troy, Class Factor 0.8, with markings of manifest 335, fineness - Daniel Frank Sedwick, LLC

47k USD

Atocha Grade 1- 8 reale $1,700+
1715 8 reale $200 to $1,000 depending on condition

Isn't the Treasure Diver's Guide general valuations based on gold at 1960's value? Something like $59 an ounce? So that $1 million dollar wreck in the book is worth $22 million in mere bullion value....

If I remember correctly the transition from bars to coins was between the 1622 and 1715 Fleets as the mints were cranking out more and more coins less bars were shipped.

 

[TRG]

One can get a high price for something that is highly valued in the current market. In a large lot of recovered coins some will be of high quality with good, attractive preservation (likely relatively few) and many will be average or poor quality/desirability as artifacts. The minimum value is the silver (or gold, or gem) value in today's market. To figure the value of the whole based on the best of the lot isn't reasonable any more than to ignore the value of the most desirable pieces. The value of coinage in 1660 (or 1715) has no bearing on it's current value in today's market. The comparison is useful to understand the value of coinage to people in 1660 in today's terms. I think that, in advance of actual recovery and assessment, trying to value an ancient cargo is simply an exercise in hopeful guesswork.

This artifact, for instance, (Pylos Combat Agate) I would guess to be nearly priceless - not bad for a piece of agate 1.5" wide...

 

[ARC]

Sold at a premium, and exceptional quality, have no bearing in market terms, its all relative. A famous shipwreck, well, it was famous for being famous, but like the Kardashians, there is little value over time, especially since the generation that remembers why the Atocha was famous is fading.

The image shown is from a shipwreck, and is of little value in todays cut market. Previously, a large green stone was all it took, not the gem quality we know of today.
Look at many of the Crown Jewels, just really large gaudy stones, but cut/clarity....

View attachment 1547752

MAI....The Atocha recovery seems to have been widely misrepresented in the value, reportedly valued at $400 million, but in reality only selling for $80 Million? (and quite a bit still for sale?)

Look at the coins from other wrecks, such as the El Cazador or Sao Jose.....why is the Atocha famous? Because......

As you are wondering, what are the values for bars and coins, you can get a silver El Cazador 8 Reale coin in a NGC box with Cert for $20 on eBay....

First off...

Only an estimated half of the treasure has been recovered.

As far as comparison of El Cazador or Sao Jose wreck coins VS Atocha... there is none.

When talking Atocha... You are talking about coins that over 100 years older... HUGE difference.

Not to mention huge difference in "type" of wreck coins... Sao Jose was a slave wreck... not a treasure ship.
And the El Cazador was a Spanish Brig... again... not a treasure ship.

This difference ... makes a difference.

 

[Boatlode]

I'm a firm believer that something is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it. But the fact that the Atocha has become the most famous Spanish galleon of all-time definitely adds value to the coins above their numismatic value. Plus we know the details of her last voyage, so the coins have a story.

 

[seekerGH]

Not to mention huge difference in "type" of wreck coins... Sao Jose was a slave wreck... not a treasure ship.
And the El Cazador was a Spanish Brig... again... not a treasure ship.

This difference ... makes a difference.

Do you think the market, or the people buying a shipwreck coin know the difference?

The Atocha is famous because Mel marketed the heck out of it.

Look at the Cert Of Authenticity that is provided with Sao Jose...(and the price of the pendant)

https://www.lostgalleon.com/shop/8766-Sao-Jose-Shipwreck-Pendant.html

Atocha was famous for being first, but that generation is fading. No one of the next generation knew or knows of Mel and the hype, its all just shipwreck treasure coins, famous for being famous as a treasure shipwreck.....

 

[PhipsFolly]

seekerGH...

There clearly were multitudes of treasure fleets that sailed and sank historically so the wrecks may seem like their “a dime a dozen”, but it is a huge investment in time, money, knowledge/research/skills, equipment and operating costs, and oh yeah... blood, sweat and tears to bring these wrecks back to the light of day.

For those of us who research/recover/conserve, and buy/sell/and trade artifacts and treasure for a living, we know that these historical pieces have a basic intrinsic value but it’s the story behind the wrecks and behind their modern day discovery and recovery of these pieces of history that truly add to the value of these finds...

Ultimately anything being sold is only worth what someone will pay for them, but most folks that I have done business with over the years want to know the stories of the wrecks themselves but even more so, love to see my passion for this endeavor and appreciate the stories of the efforts it took for them to be able to own that piece of history. It all plays into the value...

 

[Au_Dreamers]

"Do you think the market, or the people buying a shipwreck coin know the difference?"

Well yes, yes I do. Spanish colonial coins from shipwrecks are collected, bought for resale and trade by highly knowledgeable numismatists all over the world.

"The Atocha is famous because Mel marketed the heck out of it." Wait I thought you said it was "it was famous for being famous, but like the Kardashians, there is little value over time, especially since the generation that remembers why the Atocha was famous is fading."

So now you somewhat admit Mel's business acumen made the Atocha famous..... that's a start.

and again "Atocha was famous for being first, but that generation is fading. No one of the next generation knew or knows of Mel and the hype, its all just shipwreck treasure coins, famous for being famous as a treasure shipwreck.....

So like umm Atocha mother lode found in 1985 is 33 years ago..... The story is timeless and an incredible human interest story for generations. There are many lessons one can learn from that story to improve one's life.

I'm sure if you ask operations they would tell you people of all ages come through the museums and shops. I myself meet and talk to people in all age ranges that find shipwreck treasures of the 1715 Fleet, Atocha and Margarita highly interesting. People will always be interested in shipwreck treasure. The stories of the treasure searching and finding are just as interesting to people.

Like PhipsFolly.... WE know this because this is our world. We actual explore for and recover historical shipwreck artifacts. We deal with it daily.

Maybe you lack this knowledge from looking on the outside in ?

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Look at the Cert Of Authenticity that is provided with Sao Jose...(and the price of the pendant)

https://www.lostgalleon.com/shop/8766-Sao-Jose-Shipwreck-Pendant.html

What is the point you are attempting to make with this?

 

[seekerGH]

Maybe you lack this knowledge from looking on the outside in ?

Yes, that is it. Brilliant response as usual.

The millennials with money have no idea who Mel was, and few even know who Cousteau was...go and ask.

You and other crustaceans know, because you live it, you have nothing else. Go stand outside the museum in Key West, ask the crowd anything about the Atocha. I was there over New Years, and no one, absolutely no one knew what the Atocha was. A few knew who Mel was, by looking up at the musuem...go ahead, try it yourself.

There is nothing inordinarily famous about the Atocha. If it was so famous, why is so much of it still for sale?

What is the point you are attempting to make with this?

Did you read the description of the Sao Jose as it is presented? According to the site, it carried royal treasure of Prince Philip III, According to the Cert, it was the almiranta of the fleet, carrying royal treasure for the Portuguese empire, and the wealth of the grandson of famous explorer Vasco De Gama....

For the public, it is a treasure ship, no different that the Atocha. You are correct, people will always be interested in shipwreck treasure, but few care little other than that title...

 

[Au_Dreamers]

you have nothing else.

My response to quote you is ..... Yes, that is it. Brilliant response as usual.

You're a funny fellow.... That is such a little person's comment that takes the cake even for you. Did I hit a nerve? it wasn't personal it was an observation of you on these forums....

Why is it that thread after thread you go off track with negative comments personal attacks about treasure hunting and/or treasure hunters?

 

[Honest Samuel]

Good hunting and good luck.

 

[Marine Archaeology Int.]

Interesting back and forward. Still, the question remains: how much would you guys say a $1,000,000 pesos Spanish cargo from the 17th or 18th century is worth? On a related matter, in past few months we have received several offers in order to keep the integrity of a collection whole, and avoid selling artifacts, to contemplate using it as a base for a cryptocurrency. I see the merit in the idea. Have you heard similar proposals? What do you think?