1715 fleet why i know and why i know it

[ivan salis]

number 1 -- how many vessels -- answer 12 -- the French vessel griffon and 11 Spanish vessels --salmon in his sept 20th 1715 letter to the king of Spain says --9 vessels are known to be lost and 2 of the gallons are missing and thought to be lost --because wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the north coast of St Augustine *--9 plus 2 is 11 and the griffon made 12 in total

number 2 roughly where are the vessels thought to have sunk at ? -- 8 vessels are thought to be sunk in the mel fisher 1715 fleet area --all 5 of Ubilla's fleet plus 3 of Echeverz's fleet (both main treasure vessels and the dutch prize vessel known as the "olandeisa" spanish for Holland / dutch..).then there are the 3 vessels of Echeverz's fleet which broke away from the main fleet the day before the storm hit and headed northward trying to outrun the storm-- the nao conception is thought to have sank close to the cape area due to 4 men from her being found washed up on a hatch cover on the cape after being adrift for a couple of days...the other 2 "missing" gallons were the French prize "el ciervo" (the stag) and tobacco hauling nao --San Miguel plus there is the 1728 dutch map showing the words --here lies the remains of the 1715 silver fleet just below the st Augustine area --dutch vessels were well known to use weighted grapples to try to fish up treasure chest off wrecks

number 3 if all 11 Spanish 1715 are roughly accounted for why are 1715 type items being found in Nassau sound (between Amelia Island and Talbot Island) >? --easy a rescue and recovery vessel was sent from Havana Cuba to gather VIP'S and royal treasure from the 1715 wrecksites for return to Spain---it wrecked in Nassau sound --source for this info -- oct 24th, 1715 letter from governor of Virginia (Spotswood) to british home sec (Stanhope)in the PS it gives the details

you see my reasonings and the documents quoted --so now its your turn ...agree or disagree --if you disagree please say why and show proof if possible

 

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[CaptnJohn]

I'll be in St Augustine in February and early March with a few days to MD. Might still be a little to wash up?

 

[RTR]

Heres one that was beached 'intact'. https://www.jamesaflood.com/1715beached.html

 

[FISHEYE]

The [FONT=Palatino Linotype, Palatino, Georgia, Times, Times New Roman, serif]Hampton Court broke up before it hit the reefs.Accounts from survivors said the stern castle broke off at a distance of a cannon shot from shore.[/FONT]

 

[ivan salis]

a cannon shot is typically 3 miles … much like the terroritoral limit is / was in those days

 

[Boatlode]

Is this the map you showed me at the picnic, Ivan?

 

[PetesPockets55]

Is this the map you showed me at the picnic, Ivan?

View attachment 1648051

1770 no less!

 

[ivan salis]

yes it was first made in nov of 1769 by Capt William Fuller for then lord edgmont of England who obtained ownership of amelia island FROM ENGLAND WHEN THE BRITS GOT FLORIDA IN 1763 IN A WAR SETTLEMENT -- THE ENGLISH KNeW OF THE WRECK IN 1715 -- THE GOVENOR OF VIRGINIA (spotswood) ASKED TO LOOT THE SITE in his Oct 24th 1715 letter to lord Stanhope) -- but THE AREA WAS UNDER SPANISH CONTROL and the king did not want to restart the war that had just ended --so they marked the "spot" and the king said --we will soon be getting that land from spain and will salvage it then... well soon turned out to be 1763 ...48 years later ...those who knew what that location wreck mark meant were long dead by then..... in 1769 when the new "modern map" was made * 54 years later on --the secret location got transferred to this map ---note its the only shipwreck noted on the entire map....

made in nov of 1769 ...its publishing date was 1770 --a French version translation a bit later exist too -- I first saw the French version it credits the english version on it - I put the map together with the letter of Oct 24th of 1715 by spotswood and the fact that 1715 fleet type artifacts had been found in the area ...and figgered out that it was the VIP rescue barkalongo that spotswood said was sent from Havana , cuba in his letter ...that wrecked in Nassau sound...it would have been loaded with royal treasures recovered from the southern 1715 wrecksites (near vero) headed back to spain when it "disappeared" --the Spanish had no ideal where it was lost at

 

[QuartermasterD]

been meaning to reply to this for awhile...

the 1770 map and the information ivan provided regarding a 1715 letter are very intriguing. i pulled the text directly from the letter:

P. S.–Here is advice of a considerable Event in these p'ts that ye Spanish plate Fleet, richly laden, consisting of II sail, are, (except one,) Cast away in the Gulph of Florida to ye Southward of St. Augustine, and y't a Barcalongo, sent from the Havanna to fetch off from the cont't some Passengers of distinction who were in y't Fleet, having recovered from ye Wrecks a consid'ble quantity of plate, is likewise cast away ab't 40 Miles to ye Northward of St. Augustine. I think it my duty to inform his Maj'tie of this Accid't, w'ch may be improved to the Advantage of his Maj't's Subjects if encouragement be given to attempt ye recovery of some of that Imense Treasury.

there's also the 1728 van keulen map that designates plate fleet remains between st. augustine and the cape. here's an interesting old thread ivan started that discusses that map: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/s...-mean-lot-when-doing-1715-fleet-research.html

i believe i looked into the history of the van keulen maps once before and thought this map could have possibly occurred during the start of a transition period where a younger family member made it - if that would make it suspect. not certain, but someone can double check if they want: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_van_Keulen

i also wanted to point out the work done by amelia research and recovery. they provide an excellent composition of historical evidence related to the san miguel on their website, but keep in mind this was written in 1999: Research on the San Miguel

the last thing i wanted to mention, was that i'm fairly certain i remember reading somewhere that there were actually witnesses in st. augustine who saw a dismasted ship sailing north immediately after or during the storm. i've tried to verify this memory, but i can't seem to locate a source for this information. if i'm correct, hopefully someone is familiar and can post the source.

i was curious if there was existing documentation of the items found in nassau sound. i believe one item was a jewelers stove or something similar - does it exist somewhere? i believe there were coins, too - dates? do we know who found these items?

it's funny how window seats don't excite me anymore, but every flight in or out of orlando that i get the beachside window seat, if it's still daylight, i always sit up to stare down at nassau sound.

 

[QuartermasterD]

i’ve spent many nights now since my last post trying to figure out where i read that there were witnesses in st. augustine who saw the san miguel heading north demasted. i finally found something that validates that memory:

“Consequently, the San Miguel was last spotted heading north past St. Augustine—without a mast.”

https://www.wheretraveler.com/jacksonville/treasure-hunters-eyes-prize

i know i read it with slightly more detail somewhere else, but that true source still eludes me. it may have been a document on a website that is no longer active. anyway, my money is on it being north of st. augustine.

also, i figured out that the coins were found by ivan’s dad who sold them at a time when ivan was too young to recall the details. the jewelers furnace i believe was found in the net of a shrimp boat, but i couldn’t find a name associated with that story.

 

[ARC]

i’ve spent many nights now since my last post trying to figure out where i read that there were witnesses in st. augustine who saw the san miguel heading north demasted. i finally found something that validates that memory:

“Consequently, the San Miguel was last spotted heading north past St. Augustine—without a mast.”

https://www.wheretraveler.com/jacksonville/treasure-hunters-eyes-prize

i know i read it with slightly more detail somewhere else, but that true source still eludes me. it may have been a document on a website that is no longer active. anyway, my money is on it being north of st. augustine.

also, i figured out that the coins were found by ivan’s dad who sold them at a time when ivan was too young to recall the details. the jewelers furnace i believe was found in the net of a shrimp boat, but i couldn’t find a name associated with that story.

Interesting you posted this... FOR...

Ivan posted thread in 2017... the Sr. San Miguel ---1715 fleet ship---information about it--check it out

 

[Alexandre]

The Nuestra Señora de las Nieves y las Animas was a Portuguese ship...

 

[Alexandre]

There are also hundreds of pages regarding the Nuestra Señora del Carmen y San Antonio, ex-Hampton Court...

 

[aquanut]

There are also hundreds of pages regarding the Nuestra Señora del Carmen y San Antonio, ex-Hampton Court...

View attachment 1714602

Alexandre, was the Nuestra Señora del Carmen y San Antonio, ex-Hampton Court...or was the Hampton Court renamed the San Roman?

 

[Boatlode]

was the Nuestra Señora del Carmen y San Antonio, ex-Hampton Court...or was the Hampton Court renamed the San Roman?

The NS del Carmen is the Hampton Court. Its the wreck off the 1st green at Rio Mar golf course.

 

[Alexandre]

Boatlode already answered and he is right.

Alexandre, was the Nuestra Señora del Carmen y San Antonio, ex-Hampton Court...or was the Hampton Court renamed the San Roman?

 

[WaveJunky757]

The idea of a rescue vessel being sent to pick up VIPs and whatever else they could grab would make sense. Under what terms it “ potentially” wrecked in the sound is a huge missing link. Harbor from a storm? I’m not familiar with the underwater topography of the sound but it appears to be sand/silt. Did it “wreck” or run aground then perhaps burned ? Given how great they were at keeping records , I’m sure someone knows more details that for obvious reasons aren’t being told. Either way , sounds like a great mystery.

 

[FISHEYE]

I just want to know how the witness knew that it was the Sr. San Miguel heading north dismasted.Was he in havana and saw the ship before?Or was he a sailor and was on it before or on another ship when it was captured?Im sure the 1715 fleet ships were not the only ships at sea during the hurricane and that got caught in it and dismasted or heavily damaged.The hurricane showed up without warning so you would think there could have a bunch of ships that got caught in it maybe even some from the port in st augustine heading south or even north or to the bahamas.Even other ships that wrecked during that hurricane would have had coins owned by passengers/sailors and other artifacts on it dated prior to 1715.If you saw a wrecked wooden ship on the beach or in the surf all smashed to bits how would be able to tell what the name of the ship was,unless you found a washed up bell or a survivor told you.

 

[Red_desert]

The Hampton Court broke up before it hit the reefs.Accounts from survivors said the stern castle broke off at a distance of a cannon shot from shore.

Wasn't the Hampton Court the refurbished ship captured from the British and they stuffed gold in every possible place?

 

[Flipperfla]

One thing I noticed if you zoom in on the pix, the rudder is damaged.