Known shipwrecks with secret cargo: have any of the secret cargoes been found"
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    Known shipwrecks with secret cargo: have any of the secret cargoes been found"

    Hi folks!
    I have been seeing several wrecks over the last few years being touted as having millions or billions in gold or silver bullion or buckets of gemstones aboard that were not on the manifest, but are assuredly there because insert some reason here.
    Have any of these phantom cargoes been salvaged or is it always a case of "THIS ONE going to be THE one"?
    Not to be picking on any of my friends who are chasing these projects...just an honest question.
    Bill Black
    Search and Salvage/Caribbean Treasure Salvors
    Sebastian, FL
    ropesfish@gmail.com

    Subcontractor on the 1715 Plate Fleet "C-31"
    “You can either be a victim of the world or an adventurer in search of treasure. It all depends on how you view your life.”
    Paulo Coelho, Eleven Minutes

    https://www.facebook.com/searchandsalvage.net/


    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1467407956647367/

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    Well if the cargo has been found, it wouldn't be a secret anymore.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salvor6 View Post
    Well if the cargo has been found, it wouldn't be a secret anymore.
    Well, gee, Pete...that was helpful...
    Salvor6, A2coins and thetigers2 like this.
    Bill Black
    Search and Salvage/Caribbean Treasure Salvors
    Sebastian, FL
    ropesfish@gmail.com

    Subcontractor on the 1715 Plate Fleet "C-31"
    “You can either be a victim of the world or an adventurer in search of treasure. It all depends on how you view your life.”
    Paulo Coelho, Eleven Minutes

    https://www.facebook.com/searchandsalvage.net/


    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1467407956647367/

  4. #4

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    The first question I ask myself when I see a secret cargo or millions or billions "Is it a stock exchange funded company or a privately funded company". When I read about the Shinil claim I checked and found out that it was a stock market project and that told me all I needed to know. My project is privately funded.
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  5. #5
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    Stickmarsh Jedi Master

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    Wasn't there a U-boat that went down somewhere near the end of WWII with a secret cargo of gold bullion bound for South America?
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    "Today's the day!" - Mel Fisher

  6. #6
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    Boatlode - I only know of the Japanese sub for sure:
    there was I-52, the Japanese sub carrying 2.2 tons of gold that Paul Tidwell found in 1995 @17,000 fsw in the Bay of Biscay, between France and Spain.
    Her cargo from Japan included 9.8 tons of molybdenum, 11 tons of tungsten, 2.2 tons of gold in 146 bars packed in 49 metal boxes, 3 tons of opium and 54 kg of caffeine as well as 120 tons of tin in ingots, 59.8 tons of caoutchouc (raw rubber) in bales and 3.3 tons of quinine,
    Also from WIkipedia:
    She is also known as Japan's "Golden Submarine", because she was carrying a cargo of gold to Germany as payment for matériel and technology. There has been speculation that a peace proposal to the Allies was contained on board the I-52 as well, but this is unlikely on two counts: there is no evidence that the Japanese government was interested in peace proposals or negotiated settlements at that stage in the war; and the Japanese kept an open dialogue with their diplomatic attachés via radio and diplomatic voucher through Russia, and had no need for long and uncertain transfer via a submarine bound for a Nazi-controlled area of western Europe.
    It is believed that 800 kg (1,760-lbs) of uranium oxide awaited I-52 for her return voyage at Lorient according to Ultra decrypts. It has been speculated that this was for the Japanese to develop a radiological weapon (a so-called "dirty bomb") for use against the United States. (The amount of unenriched uranium oxide would not have been enough to create an atomic bomb, though if used in a nuclear reactor it could have created poisonous fission products).[2]
    She was also to be fitted with a snorkel device at Lorient. In addition, 35 to 40 tons of secret documents, drawings, and strategic cargo awaited I-52's return trip to Japan: T-5 acoustic torpedoes, a Jumo 213-A motorused on the long-nosed Focke-Wulf Fw 190D fighter, radar equipment, vacuum tubes, ball bearings, bombsights, chemicals, alloy steel, and optical glass.
    https://www.nytimes.com/1995/07/18/s...-atlantic.html

    and there was this documentary that made no specific claims that I recall.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...a-5350561.html


    Does this ship count? https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/407718...wreck-iceland/
    A2coins, Simon1, doc-d and 1 others like this.
    Bill Black
    Search and Salvage/Caribbean Treasure Salvors
    Sebastian, FL
    ropesfish@gmail.com

    Subcontractor on the 1715 Plate Fleet "C-31"
    “You can either be a victim of the world or an adventurer in search of treasure. It all depends on how you view your life.”
    Paulo Coelho, Eleven Minutes

    https://www.facebook.com/searchandsalvage.net/


    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1467407956647367/

  7. #7
    us
    The continuing adventures of Ropesfish -

    Jun 2007
    Sebastian, Florida
    A sharp eye, an AquaPulse and a finely tuned shrimp fork.
    1,055
    1589 times
    Shipwrecks
    Boatlode - I only know of the Japanese sub for sure:
    there was I-52, the Japanese sub carrying 2.2 tons of gold that Paul Tidwell found in 1995 @17,000 fsw in the Bay of Biscay, between France and Spain.
    Her cargo from Japan included 9.8 tons of molybdenum, 11 tons of tungsten, 2.2 tons of gold in 146 bars packed in 49 metal boxes, 3 tons of opium and 54 kg of caffeine as well as 120 tons of tin in ingots, 59.8 tons of caoutchouc (raw rubber) in bales and 3.3 tons of quinine,
    Also from WIkipedia:
    She is also known as Japan's "Golden Submarine", because she was carrying a cargo of gold to Germany as payment for matériel and technology. There has been speculation that a peace proposal to the Allies was contained on board the I-52 as well, but this is unlikely on two counts: there is no evidence that the Japanese government was interested in peace proposals or negotiated settlements at that stage in the war; and the Japanese kept an open dialogue with their diplomatic attachés via radio and diplomatic voucher through Russia, and had no need for long and uncertain transfer via a submarine bound for a Nazi-controlled area of western Europe.
    It is believed that 800 kg (1,760-lbs) of uranium oxide awaited I-52 for her return voyage at Lorient according to Ultra decrypts. It has been speculated that this was for the Japanese to develop a radiological weapon (a so-called "dirty bomb") for use against the United States. (The amount of unenriched uranium oxide would not have been enough to create an atomic bomb, though if used in a nuclear reactor it could have created poisonous fission products).[2]
    She was also to be fitted with a snorkel device at Lorient. In addition, 35 to 40 tons of secret documents, drawings, and strategic cargo awaited I-52's return trip to Japan: T-5 acoustic torpedoes, a Jumo 213-A motorused on the long-nosed Focke-Wulf Fw 190D fighter, radar equipment, vacuum tubes, ball bearings, bombsights, chemicals, alloy steel, and optical glass.
    https://www.nytimes.com/1995/07/18/s...-atlantic.html

    and there was this documentary that made no specific claims that I recall.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...a-5350561.html


    Does this ship count? https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/407718...wreck-iceland/
    A2coins and grantler like this.
    Bill Black
    Search and Salvage/Caribbean Treasure Salvors
    Sebastian, FL
    ropesfish@gmail.com

    Subcontractor on the 1715 Plate Fleet "C-31"
    “You can either be a victim of the world or an adventurer in search of treasure. It all depends on how you view your life.”
    Paulo Coelho, Eleven Minutes

    https://www.facebook.com/searchandsalvage.net/


    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1467407956647367/

  8. #8
    us
    Stickmarsh Jedi Master

    Mar 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropesfish View Post
    Boatlode - I only know of the Japanese sub for sure:
    there was I-52, the Japanese sub carrying 2.2 tons of gold that Paul Tidwell found in 1995 @17,000 fsw in the Bay of Biscay, between France and Spain.
    Her cargo from Japan included 9.8 tons of molybdenum, 11 tons of tungsten, 2.2 tons of gold in 146 bars packed in 49 metal boxes, 3 tons of opium and 54 kg of caffeine as well as 120 tons of tin in ingots, 59.8 tons of caoutchouc (raw rubber) in bales and 3.3 tons of quinine,
    Also from WIkipedia:
    She is also known as Japan's "Golden Submarine", because she was carrying a cargo of gold to Germany as payment for matériel and technology. There has been speculation that a peace proposal to the Allies was contained on board the I-52 as well, but this is unlikely on two counts: there is no evidence that the Japanese government was interested in peace proposals or negotiated settlements at that stage in the war; and the Japanese kept an open dialogue with their diplomatic attachés via radio and diplomatic voucher through Russia, and had no need for long and uncertain transfer via a submarine bound for a Nazi-controlled area of western Europe.
    It is believed that 800 kg (1,760-lbs) of uranium oxide awaited I-52 for her return voyage at Lorient according to Ultra decrypts. It has been speculated that this was for the Japanese to develop a radiological weapon (a so-called "dirty bomb") for use against the United States. (The amount of unenriched uranium oxide would not have been enough to create an atomic bomb, though if used in a nuclear reactor it could have created poisonous fission products).[2]
    She was also to be fitted with a snorkel device at Lorient. In addition, 35 to 40 tons of secret documents, drawings, and strategic cargo awaited I-52's return trip to Japan: T-5 acoustic torpedoes, a Jumo 213-A motorused on the long-nosed Focke-Wulf Fw 190D fighter, radar equipment, vacuum tubes, ball bearings, bombsights, chemicals, alloy steel, and optical glass.
    https://www.nytimes.com/1995/07/18/s...-atlantic.html

    and there was this documentary that made no specific claims that I recall.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...a-5350561.html


    Does this ship count? https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/407718...wreck-iceland/
    Wow 17000 feet. Thats a long hookah hose LOL.
    I seem to remember something about a u-boat that departed Germany very late in the war bound for Argentina carrying several of Hitler's top officers and a lot of gold bullion.

    Or it could be a novel I read at some point and in the dusty recesses of my brain it has migrated from fiction to non-fiction LOL.

    As always, you are a treasure trove of information Capn. Bill.

    Mike
    A2coins, Simon1, Blak bart and 2 others like this.
    "Today's the day!" - Mel Fisher

  9. #9
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    Tommy

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    If someone said there was treasure wouldnt the Gov or someone look into them Love the posts about the Subs and lost gold

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  10. #10
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    All of the gold/silver shipments during the World Wars were secret. Many have been recovered. The City of Cairo silver was recently salvaged by Kingsford. The Empire Manor gold was recovered by Risdon Beazley. Google names like Lusitania, Egypt, Niagra, John Barry, etc.

    And there are others...
    Boatlode, Simon1, grantler and 1 others like this.

  11. #11
    br
    Jul 2018
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    There are the secret and there is the undocumented. A ships manifest showed what was being transported by the ship, but nothing about personal items on board (unless there was insurance)

    Many of the Spanish Treasure ships had significant wealth not shown on the manifest. Gold was fashioned into jewelry and other items to avoid tax, mostly undocumented.

    If someone said there was treasure wouldnt the Gov or someone look into them Love the posts about the Subs and lost gold
    They are, the UK Govt Commodity Wreck program was an example.
    doc-d likes this.
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  12. #12
    cl
    Nov 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropesfish View Post
    Hi folks!
    I have been seeing several wrecks over the last few years being touted as having millions or billions in gold or silver bullion or buckets of gemstones aboard that were not on the manifest, but are assuredly there because insert some reason here.
    Have any of these phantom cargoes been salvaged or is it always a case of "THIS ONE going to be THE one"?
    Not to be picking on any of my friends who are chasing these projects...just an honest question.
    Hola Amigo

    I think many WW2 stories treasure stories regards Submarines evolved from the true Story USS Trout that shipped gold from the Philippines in 1942. But that was not common practice just a last ditch desperate measure. The effectiveness of submarine can be affected by a heavy cargo its not designed. The Japanese sub mentioned before was different case in question because it was designed to take cargo.

    As any submariner will tell you most submarines are not designed to carry tons and tons of gold. They was impossible cramped to begin with. Most used the combined body weight of the crew to trim the submarine.

    The two u boats that fled to Argentina at the end of the war created all sort of conspiracy theory's of large amount of treasure in them. After internment Some of the German crews settled in Argentina, Chile.

    My wife' late father was one of the crew members of the U-530 . I asked him that question about wealth carried on the subs when they defected. He scoffed and laughed if they had money and gold he never saw a cent of it.

    Mal
    Last edited by South Sea mariner; Nov 02, 2018 at 08:54 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Pirate of the Martires

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    The IXD German submarines could carry over 250 tons of cargo. Germany built 30 of them in 1943 and 1944. The Japanese sub I-52 sank 850 miles west of the Canary Islands in March 1944 carrying 2.2 tons of gold bars. She also had over 120 tons of cargo destined for France.

  14. #14
    cl
    Nov 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salvor6 View Post
    The IXD German submarines could carry over 250 tons of cargo. Germany built 30 of them in 1943 and 1944. The Japanese sub I-52 sank 850 miles west of the Canary Islands in March 1944 carrying 2.2 tons of gold bars. She also had over 120 tons of cargo destined for France.
    Hola Salvor6

    Your correct but only partially. In question not all the IXD submarines was converted to cargo boats.

    In regards to the two Submarines fleeing to Argentina the U-530 was a Type IXC/40 U-boat. U-977 was a World War II Type VIIC U-boat.

    Was involved both crews was fleeing seeking asylum in Argentina. While there was panic in the crew of U-530 that they would be accused of sinking the Brazilian cruiser after the war had ended. In effect a war crime. The Argentine navy inspected the u-530 and found no torpedos missing. later investigations by the Americans and British turned up nothing. Of course this did not stop wild speculations about the two subs.

    Hans my father in law was just an ordinary seaman. Yet suspected the reason why the log was destroyed that his commander witnessed the sinking of the Brazilian ship through the periscope. And was afraid of being implicated in a war crime. But because of log being destroyed it sparked many conspiracy theories.

    Old Hans he had this terrible gruff German accent. You know the type of voice that sounds angry? Yet he was the most happy go lucky guy you could met despite a lot of tragedy in his life. He had been married twice he had his first wife died in bombing of Dresden leaving him with a young son after the war and internment he returned to Germany and collect his son. nearly 5 year old he had never seen who had been looked after by his late wife's grand mother. Germany was shattered after WW2 so for him he remarried in Germany and with his new family returned South America to Chile. Even so his second wife was not so faithful and ran off with Chilean fellow leaving him to bring up 5 kids. He had four Sons and one girl. That girl years later became my wife. his youngest son only 16 was killed in a car crash. His oldest son was murdered by the Pinochet regime in 1970's. Even with all the family tragedy he always had a happy disposition.

    He was almost totally deaf. He has lost most of his hearing as he was on a submarine in straits of Gibraltar where he was death charged. So his speaking was loud and with gruff accent. He was chain smoker all his life he died at ripe of age of 86. He always joked his doctor told him to give up smoking for 30 years. His doctor was fitness fanatic died of heart attract at 53 and Hans lived smoking to 86, go figure!

    Later in his live as he got old he lived in my granny flat. I think he had soft spot for me as I was seaman myself. Hell on his rocking chair cigarette in hand told me many yarns. My wife doted on her dad. At Christmas he dress up as father Christmas. Toward the end of his life he even forgot to speak German. After 50 years being away he lost all contact on any surviving family in Germany.

    He mentioned to on I think he said on the subs sixth voyage on the U-530 that met up and supplied a radar unit to an Japanese submarine mid Atlantic then returned to Germany. But as far as I am aware Hans was never privy to what was on the Japanese submarine? They was just happy to get back to port to rum and girls ALIVE?. It was the second voyage he sailed on U-530 which was for him his last voyage and good riddance he told me Das boot was nicknamed "Iron Coffins" to crews that operated them. The crew was made of various experienced and inexperienced crew members who had served on various boats. To the end of the war most was just scared kids.

    As for stories of huge gold transfers to South America I suspect best to look at the account methods of the Vatican bank that through diplomatic banks transfers fleeing Nazis fund to South America. The Vatican bank does not operate in the capacity of banks as we know it. It operates as a clearing house.

    Mal
    Last edited by South Sea mariner; Nov 03, 2018 at 11:22 PM.

  15. #15
    cl
    Nov 2016
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    Hola amigos

    Here is an insight into German submarines of WW2



    Submarines are fascinating but for me I stick to cargo ships.

    There is an 1981 movie "das boot" sadly in German showing the terror of being a submariner in WW2.



    While movie is in German the terror is universal.

    Mal

 

 
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