Amelia Island/Fernandina

[billi2772]

Read on some site that 1715 coins were found on the south end of Fernadina a few years ago. Are coins still being found there?

 

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[billi2772]

Guess I should of read more before posting. It appears that I am not near the first person that has thought what I think "aquatic preserve"

Looking at Google Earth it makes so much sense though. Like a last ditch effort to get into some safe waters from the storm. I would think with all the dredging that goes on around there, a ton of coins would be found if the wreck was anywhere north of the southern tip of AI/Fernandina.

Good luck and hope you find it right there. I would love just to be right about something even though I am obviously years late with the theory.

 

[ivan salis]

La Holandesa (the dutch in spanish) aka Olandesa (dutch) was wrecked to the south -- Echeverz wrote letters from the shelter (real) of the Olandesa ---the Olandesa was one of 3 "prize vessels " that Echeverz captured and added to his fleet -- two galley class vessels were captured-- ONE WAS DUTCH--- (LA HOLANDESA OR OLANDESA -- IN SPANISH "THE DUTCH" OR "DUTCH" ) the other ONE WAS FRENCH (LA FRANCECA also known as EL CIERVO (THE STAG) --IN SPANISH) THEY ARE ALSO CALLED THE DUTCH PRIZE AND FRENCH FRIZE--- (the third was a very minor english vessel a blandra class vessel which he renamed the san migeil exlisis--- not to be mixed up with the Nao class vessel the SENOR SAN MIGUEL THAT WAS IN HARBOR BACK IN HAVANA loading tabbaco --- they were taken by Echeverz's pataches off of tolu, columbia -- while in porto bello panama awiating the treasure shipments --Echeverz sent his fast scout type frigatillas (pataches) raiding on any foreign trade vessels they found -- at the time spain had a trading monoply --it said no trade with our colonies any vessels found with trade goods onbard near the spanish colony were taken and sold at auction--the admiral got a cut and the king a cut from the sale of the vessels --records show that Echeverz bought both the dutch vessel and the frnch vessel at auction in porto bello and added them to his fleet -- the port officals demanded that Echeverz hire more crew for his "private" vessels so as not to strip the crew off of his main vessels before they would allow him to sailthe vessels with the fleet ---echeverz knew there was lots of trade goods waiting in havana wait to be taken back to spain and since the was not as much treasure to be carried as he had hoped for (the more treasure they carried the more his cut was) he wanted to make money off the deal any way he could -- echeverz sailed to havana and it is thought he may have sold the very small english vessel to raise funds to pay and feed his crew while in port for a good while awaiting Ubilla to arrive -- the locals bought the english vessel renaming her MARIA GALANTE -- when Ubilla arrived later having lost 4 of his pataches --he bought the small vessel and as was quite common --named it for his patron saint --Nuestra Senora de la Regla (the same name as uBILLA'S command NAO CLASS ship) -- the madding habit of 3 names can cause a lot of mix ups -- one name was religious --normallyafter the owners patron saint --thus there could be several vessels of differant sizes and types named alike --the second name was the "offical" name it was often rather long ---so they often used "nick names" quite often ---a prime exsample is the dutch prize vessel --its religous name was SAN MIGUEL after Echeverz's patron saint ---offically called by Echeverz when he bought her --SENOR DE LA POPA -- and nick named --LA HOLANDESA (THE DUTCH),OLANDESA (DUTCH) AND POSSILBY "LA GALERIA" (THE GALLEY AFTER THE CLASS TYPE VESSEL SHE WAS) and also called "the dutch prize" too boot. confusing eh?

THE MISSING VESSELS ARE THE FRECH PRIZE AKA (EL CIERVO OR LA FRANECSA) A GALLEY CLASS VESSEL --- THE SENOR SAN MIGUEL --A NAO CLASS VESSEL AND A FEW PATACHE OR FRIGATILLAS (SMALL FRIGATE TYPE VESSELS) THE SAN MIGUEL WAS THE LARGEST --THE FRENCH PRIZE WOULD BE NEXT LARGEST AND THEN THE REST --THE SENOR SAN MIGUEL WAS MAINLY LOADED WITH TABBACO THUS SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE FASTEST OF THE NAOS ---THE VESSELS THAT ARE MISSING WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH QUICKER THAN THE HEAVILY ARMED AND HEAVILY TREASURE LADEN MAIN TREASURE NAOS OF THE FLEETS -- thus when the griffon peeled rubber the day before the storm struck the fleet breaking away from the fleet --they would have been the ones sent after her to catch her and bring her back to the fleet -- the griffon was forced to sail with tresure fleet after being "held" in port for quite some time to prevent any leaks about their numbers and departure date of the fleet to raiders --- Ivan

 

[billi2772]

So what Ivan is saying is that Karma is a bitch.

 

[ivan salis]

the griffon lived because she broke away from the fleet a day before the strom struck --she was a smaller faster vessel --and not carrying the large amount of goods the spanish vessels were (remember the "trade monoply?) so when strong winds occured the day before storm hit -- the captian of the GRIFFON took advantage of them and left the fleet heading northward her captain pouring on the sails HEADED NORTHWARD ---HE THEN HE LATER TURNED TO THE EAST sailing back to france --sailing the course he did allowed him to miss the storm both as it struck the main fleet to the south and when it turned and ran northward up the coast--- he by breaking away from the fleet and using the early strong winds coming off the storm to move his vessel out of harms way saved his vessel and his crews lives---- Ubilla was the senior capt general but it was Echeverz fleet vessels that were sent after her to bring the GRIFFON back----the senor san miguel (nao class vessel --- lightly armed) and mainly loaded with bulky but rather light tabbaco and some silver coins (offically that is) , the ciervo --(galley class /frigatilla) and some patche (smaller frigatillas) class vessels ---(these are the "missing" vessels-- these vessels all would have been the quickest vessels of the fleet -- much faster that the slow very heavily armed and heavily laden main treasure vessels of the fleets --yes the 1715 fleet was in fact two fleets one under Echeverz --the other under Ubilla --however when they linked up in havana for the return trip to spain -- Ubilla was in command of the combined fleet -- however the san miguel, the ciervo and the pataches were not as lucky as the griffon they did not cut east as she had done -- thus the northward headed storm caught up with them and sank them in various places-- Ivan

 

[billi2772]

Ivan-

Are you saying the Sr. San Miguel had no silver or had things other than silver and tobacco though that is all that was officially logged?

 

[ivan salis]

shipment of silver pesos and tabbaco was what was "offically" logged on the SENOR SAN MIGUEL --however afterwards there were offical inquests into the Echeverz fleets manifest records due to the rather large amount of smuggled or "non" registered goods found in the shipwrecks for which he was in charge -- Echeverz did not get the large amount of "legal" treasure he had hoped for in panama --he was to be paid according of the amount treasure he transported --these were his vessels he hired out to do the job and he was there to make money -- after all he was doing it for money not "king and country"--- smuggling was very common (folks hated the 20% royal tax) and according to records there was no treasure fleet for over 4 years -- the smuggling that occured on the 1715 fleet vessels was massive in scale --basically doubling the value of the vessels "offical" cargo --it is the accepted salvagers norm that 2 times the value of the offical record was aboard the vessels -- the king was fit to be tied when the facts came out about how much % wize was being smuggled- worth of note --Echeverz son was in command of the SENOR SAN MIGUEL and she was sent directly to havana on the way in and sat there for a long time loading tabbaco waiting for the other vessels to return and form up a fleet to return to spain ---a lot of time to get buddy --buddy with folks wanting to smuggle gold back -- Ivan

 

[billi2772]

Makes all the sense in the world to me. And sometimes you just have to assume things when you know not everything was written.

 

[mad4wrecks]

Snookison (that little tenderfoot ) pops in here and offers up some information I have never heard before, with no reference or footnotes or bibliography or anything....and, and, and........... leaves us all hanging. Tell us more bro.

 

[billi2772]

If someone was at Mayport and walked north it is only 7 miles to Nassau Sound then, one mile (at the widest) across it. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what Snookson is saying. If they were north of St. Aug Inlet and looking for St. Aug Inlet walking north, that is 35 miles or so between them.

 

[ivan salis]

if you were shipwrecked around st augustine inlet slightly to the north of st augustine but you "thought" you were south of st augustine and started walking northward ---at about 35 miles range you hit the mayport area and the southern bank of the st johns river ---end of trip. no way to easily get across the st. johns river. plus folks tended to hang around the mayport area being it was the mouth of the river and all --- they most likely would have bumped into someone from the jacksonville area forts & missions near there. Ivan

 

[ivan salis]

oh there are spanish treasure era wrecks in around the mayport area -- just not from 1715 --- theres one from 1733 fleet and a merchant nao that was sailing solo from 1711 that I know of.