"La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

[Chagy]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Well I started this thread a few years ago looking for some answers…On and off I have worked on this investigation for about two and a half years finally I have been able to answer my own question……Where did the Madalena aka Magdalena wreck?

Royal orders reached Pedro Menendez in New Spain in
February, 1563. He was commanded to delay there until May
or June, and then to return via the usual route to Europe.
The King directed Bartolome Menendez to leave immediately
and be back in Spain by the end of April with the Tierra
Firme ships and bullion of Peru. Pedro Menendez did not
obey the order. He determined to sail straightaway from San Juan de Ulua
to Havana, join his brother there, and return to Spain with
the Tierra Firme vessels. Since the lead ships were not in
condition to navigate, Menendez prepared and designated his
own two galleons, Santa Maria and Magdalena and the patache
Santiago as Capitana , Almiranta, and escort. Only his own ships left New Spain, while the others were left behind.

The 5 ships that were lost in 1563 were part of the main body of the New Spain fleet that was commanded by Juan Menendez And the Madalena was not one of them the Madalena was privately owned by Pedro Menendez and brought back to spain among the 3 ships he brought... this can be confirm in AGI Contratacion 5167 and Patronato 19

More proof of it is the fact that her Capt was back in Spain in 1563..
Gonzalo Solis de Menas, in Pedro Menendez de Aviles , de-
scribes the 1563 case in some detail, from a viewpoint
thoroughly sympathetic to his brother-in-law, on pp. 64-70. The
unregistered bar silver was brought by Cristobal Rodriguez Garrucho,
master of Magdalena . Witnesses for the Casa alleged that it
was worth 688 pesos and was intended to be given to one
Diego de Molina by Capt. Diego de Amaya by orders of Pedro
Menendez. This can be confirmed in A.G.I. Justicia 865, No. 1, fol. 1.

So if you all want to know where the Magdalena sank and in what year... here it is…..

In 1564 While the Spanish were failing to discover or counter
the French moves in Florida, the armada of galleons belonging
to Pedro Menfendez moved around the Caribbean with the
Tierra Firme ships. Estaban de las Alas brought San Pelayo,
Santa Clara and Magdalena to Nombre de Dios. On August 13,
they left that port for Cartagena, and, three days later,
Magdalena was wrecked on the Darien coast.

 

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[rgecy]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Chagy,

So where is the Darien Coast?

Robert

 

[FISHEYE]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Darien is a province of the Republic of Panama. Covers an area of 11,896.5 km ² in which 50% is tropical rainforest. It is located at the eastern end of the country, bordered on the north by the province of Panama and Kuna Yala. To the south borders the Pacific Ocean and the Republic of Colombia.Al this borders on the Republic of Colombia, bounded on the west the Pacific Ocean and the Province of Panama.


Darien is the largest province of Panama and less populated. Its seat is La Palma, created in 1922. The province is divided into 2 districts and Pinogana, Chepigana consisting of 25 corregimientos. Also home to one of the region of indigenous Embera-Wounaan divided into two areas (they have autonomy to administer and manage their territory).

The conquest and colonization of Panamanian territory was through this province. The first Spanish to arrive in Panama, was Rodrigo de Bastidas, who furrow the coast of Darien in 1501. The first Spanish settlement in the Americas was in the historic City of Santa Maria la Antigua del Darien.

 

[mariner]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Chagy,

Congratulations on your persistence and success. Have you narrowed down just where it wrecked, or is that a question for the next few years? There is an English saying that "the longest mile you'll ever walk is the last mile home."

Just a note: Balboa was mayor of the Spanish settlement at Darien from 1510, and it was from there that he crossed the isthmus to reach and claim for Spain the Pacific Ocean.

Mariner

 

[Chagy]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

LOL…Dear Mariner, the way I see it right now, yes the answer as to where in the Darien will be posted in a few years…LOL

I make notes of every single shipwreck I find but only concentrate my investigations on the ones that are closer to me or the ones that are in areas where I know someone has a permit. Otherwise they are left in the back burner until some one requests the information.

 

[Goldminer]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Both Marx and Singer wrote of this shipwreck as being lost near "the Cape". Now i wonder about the information on the "El Grande".

 

[Chagy]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Goldminer

I am sure that on Marx and Singer one of them published the mistaken information and the other fallowed…..It happens all the time…And especially on that particular year I can clearly see how some one could have gotten confused. See often documents will refer to a ship by Capitana of “X” year and other documents will provide the proper name of a Capitana of “X” year. In this particular year the fleets divided into 5 fleets P. Rohelas, P. Memendez, Bartolome Menendez, Juan Menendez and the small Honduras fleet this gives us 5 Capitanas and Almirantas in the same year….Very easy for anyone to get confused…

Even back when I started this thread I was almost sure that the Magdalena did not wreck in Fl. Go to this thread http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,112998.0.html and read Post 41 by Claudio and post 43 by me.

On “El Grande” Please don’t get me started…LOL the same thread I referred you to above is about the so called “EL Grande”

All the best,

Chagy…..

 

[Goldminer]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Thx. Luis,
My point was.... If this information is just page fillers, how many other "big" wreck sites are bogus?

 

[Chagy]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Goldminer,

I couldn’t say for sure how many are just page fillers and I don’t believe they were intended to be page fillers many of the authors that have written this kind of books which provide lists of wrecks have used numerous different sources, some fist hand and some second, third or even fourth hand. Man you should see how information keep growing from fist hand to a fourth hand. Marx has been asked many times where did he get the information on such and such wreck and his answer has always been the same “At the time I wrote those books I used many researchers to help me and I don’t remember”
Regardless I believe that Marx made an amazing job and that his books and adventures have served as inspiration and guide to many of us in our baby steps in this industry and his books are a most have on any treasure hunter book collection, I have five of them. Even today when I am investigating a wreck I always want to read what Marx has to say.
Of course there are many mistakes in ship names, years and locations!!!! But similar mistakes have been made by many other authors also….

On this particular wreck, I wouldn’t call it bogus, he’s got the name wrong, how ever something did wreck in 1563 in the coast of Fl and many, many historians and researches believe that it sank in Cape Canaveral…At this point I cant elaborate on the subject because I am under contract. Once it becomes public everyone will have the opportunity to know the truth…

 

[Vox veritas]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Well I started this thread a few years ago looking for some answers…On and off I have worked on this investigation for about two and a half years finally I have been able to answer my own question……Where did the Madalena aka Magdalena wreck?

Royal orders reached Pedro Menendez in New Spain in
February, 1563. He was commanded to delay there until May
or June, and then to return via the usual route to Europe.
The King directed Bartolome Menendez to leave immediately
and be back in Spain by the end of April with the Tierra
Firme ships and bullion of Peru. Pedro Menendez did not
obey the order. He determined to sail straightaway from San Juan de Ulua
to Havana, join his brother there, and return to Spain with
the Tierra Firme vessels. Since the lead ships were not in
condition to navigate, Menendez prepared and designated his
own two galleons, Santa Maria and Magdalena and the patache
Santiago as Capitana , Almiranta, and escort. Only his own ships left New Spain, while the others were left behind.

The 5 ships that were lost in 1563 were part of the main body of the New Spain fleet that was commanded by Juan Menendez And the Madalena was not one of them the Madalena was privately owned by Pedro Menendez and brought back to spain among the 3 ships he brought... this can be confirm in AGI Contratacion 5167 and Patronato 19

More proof of it is the fact that her Capt was back in Spain in 1563..
Gonzalo Solis de Menas, in Pedro Menendez de Aviles , de-
scribes the 1563 case in some detail, from a viewpoint
thoroughly sympathetic to his brother-in-law, on pp. 64-70. The
unregistered bar silver was brought by Cristobal Rodriguez Garrucho,
master of Magdalena . Witnesses for the Casa alleged that it
was worth 688 pesos and was intended to be given to one
Diego de Molina by Capt. Diego de Amaya by orders of Pedro
Menendez. This can be confirmed in A.G.I. Justicia 865, No. 1, fol. 1.

So if you all want to know where the Magdalena sank and in what year... here it is…..

In 1564 While the Spanish were failing to discover or counter
the French moves in Florida, the armada of galleons belonging
to Pedro Menfendez moved around the Caribbean with the
Tierra Firme ships. Estaban de las Alas brought San Pelayo,
Santa Clara and Magdalena to Nombre de Dios. On August 13,
they left that port for Cartagena, and, three days later,
Magdalena was wrecked on the Darien coast.

Hi Luis,
all information gathered about the Magdalena is a historical research or texts of historians? I have a friend who can work with authorization. Very interesting information. Congratulations. VV

 

[frankie]

If I was this guy, I would forget the diving, like he did. He wants the rest now!!!. If I had that much gold. I [He] should put on digging gear and tow the rest of the gold up. Wreck and all. Dive shop is in what town? Check fish piers in the area next to dive shop. Take a plane ride and get the numbers of where the shrimp boats are fishing on day one in 300 feet. Then when you find this guy. You can ask him what he wants for his cut!! Ha Ha When he laughs at you, you'll know he dug up enough to keep him self happy and busy. He just might get a better different net or cage. Add more weight to his gear and just dig up the deep gold. I wouldn't think he wouldn't have a problem with the right gear. I know our boats work these wrecks until nothing is left. If theirs gold down their and I have a bar of gold like he does. I would get a digging dredge and go back to that site.

 

[ivan salis]

similar ship names and similar capt names ...can easily make for confusion while researching unless one is very careful esp when translating very old spanish documents and if you are not a "born / native Spanish speaker /reader... having spent much time in south America during my sea going years as a merchant seaman --I understand how Spanish is "spoken" as well as common slang lingo and manner of speaking and how it differs from English and coming form a 300 year long saiingl family background ...I understand the way sea going folk "think , talk and act"..because its bred into my DNA

the 1554 mexico treasure fleet vessels that sank at padre island ,texas being listed as "florida" vessels by bob marx in his book (a error later repeated by singer as well being he used marx as a "source") --is a fine exsample of supreme confusion -- the latitude (side to side around the world ) cords that were listed if one looks across it... shows were marks listed the wrecks at on the florida east coast *(why the east coast rather than west coast I wonder ?--...since the vessel clearly enroute from Mexico to Havana ,Cuba and never arrived at Havana at all .....if one were to think it lost on the coast of state of florida--- going from Mexico to Havana wouldn't it be the "lost" west coast*? still wrong but much more "logical" ...then the east coast ... since the treasure fleets ran along the coast of modern day Texas , Louisana , Alabama and down the west coast of Florida when traveling from Mexico to Havana and , since the treasure fleets did not go by the east coast of Florida until after they had stocked up and repaired in Havana before heading back for spain) )---since the records listed the cords and since what we today call "texas"did not exist ... everything that was not mexico -- and was what we call AMERICA today was thought of as "florida" by the Spanish of that time frame ...thus the cords and florida reference in the old "spanish" records , which of course thru misunderstanding by the researcher were way off ..texas vs the east coast of florida ...with both spots --cords being at at the same degree of latitude

 

[Jolly Mon]

similar ship names and similar capt names ...can easily make for confusion while researching unless one is very careful esp when translating very old spanish documents and if you are not a "born / native Spanish speaker /reader... having spent much time in south America during my sea going years as a merchant seaman --I understand how Spanish is "spoken" as well as common slang lingo and manner of speaking and how it differs from English and coming form a 300 year long saiingl family background ...I understand the way sea going folk "think , talk and act"..because its bred into my DNA

the 1554 mexico treasure fleet vessels that sank at padre island ,texas being listed as "florida" vessels by bob marx in his book (a error later repeated by singer as well being he used marx as a "source") --is a fine exsample of supreme confusion -- the latitude (side to side around the world ) cords that were listed if one looks across it... shows were marks listed the wrecks at on the florida east coast *(why the east coast rather than west coast I wonder ?--...since the vessel clearly enroute from Mexico to Havana ,Cuba and never arrived at Havana at all .....if one were to think it lost on the coast of state of florida--- going from Mexico to Havana wouldn't it be the "lost" west coast*? still wrong but much more "logical" ...then the east coast ... since the treasure fleets ran along the coast of modern day Texas , Louisana , Alabama and down the west coast of Florida when traveling from Mexico to Havana and , since the treasure fleets did not go by the east coast of Florida until after they had stocked up and repaired in Havana before heading back for spain) )---since the records listed the cords and since what we today call "texas"did not exist ... everything that was not mexico -- and was what we call AMERICA today was thought of as "florida" by the Spanish of that time frame ...thus the cords and florida reference in the old "spanish" records , which of course thru misunderstanding by the researcher were way off ..texas vs the east coast of florida ...with both spots --cords being at at the same degree of latitude

It is amazing how the term "La Florida" has confounded people, even knowledgeable people like Mr. Marx over the years.

There is a certain beach, in a certain place, a considerable distance from present day Florida, which consistently yields Civil War artifacts and sometimes MUCH older items.

Occasionally, I will meet a local and explain to him that the original capital of Florida was a mile or so away...this is generally enough to get me branded as a madman and, thus, left alone...

 

[ivan salis]

funny how little folks often really know and understand about ---real history ..

 

[Tanneyhill]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Well I started this thread a few years ago looking for some answers…On and off I have worked on this investigation for about two and a half years finally I have been able to answer my own question……Where did the Madalena aka Magdalena wreck?

Royal orders reached Pedro Menendez in New Spain in
February, 1563. He was commanded to delay there until May
or June, and then to return via the usual route to Europe.
The King directed Bartolome Menendez to leave immediately
and be back in Spain by the end of April with the Tierra
Firme ships and bullion of Peru. Pedro Menendez did not
obey the order. He determined to sail straightaway from San Juan de Ulua
to Havana, join his brother there, and return to Spain with
the Tierra Firme vessels. Since the lead ships were not in
condition to navigate, Menendez prepared and designated his
own two galleons, Santa Maria and Magdalena and the patache
Santiago as Capitana , Almiranta, and escort. Only his own ships left New Spain, while the others were left behind.

The 5 ships that were lost in 1563 were part of the main body of the New Spain fleet that was commanded by Juan Menendez And the Madalena was not one of them the Madalena was privately owned by Pedro Menendez and brought back to spain among the 3 ships he brought... this can be confirm in AGI Contratacion 5167 and Patronato 19

More proof of it is the fact that her Capt was back in Spain in 1563..
Gonzalo Solis de Menas, in Pedro Menendez de Aviles , de-
scribes the 1563 case in some detail, from a viewpoint
thoroughly sympathetic to his brother-in-law, on pp. 64-70. The
unregistered bar silver was brought by Cristobal Rodriguez Garrucho,
master of Magdalena . Witnesses for the Casa alleged that it
was worth 688 pesos and was intended to be given to one
Diego de Molina by Capt. Diego de Amaya by orders of Pedro
Menendez. This can be confirmed in A.G.I. Justicia 865, No. 1, fol. 1.

So if you all want to know where the Magdalena sank and in what year... here it is…..

In 1564 While the Spanish were failing to discover or counter
the French moves in Florida, the armada of galleons belonging
to Pedro Menfendez moved around the Caribbean with the
Tierra Firme ships. Estaban de las Alas brought San Pelayo,
Santa Clara and Magdalena to Nombre de Dios. On August 13,
they left that port for Cartagena, and, three days later,
Magdalena was wrecked on the Darien coast.

Any update on the Magdalena wreck? Btw, how do you guys get such incredibly detailed theories from way back in the 1500s, which I find quite fascinating & enjoyable to read?

Is this all directly from the Spanish archives? Must be quite challenging to read hand writing from hundreds of years ago and that in a version of Spanish from back then, which I imagine is quite different than modern day Spanish.