"La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

[Chagy]

"La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Hello,

I wonder if anyone has done any research or salvage efforts in these wrecks.....

"La Magdalena" commanded by Capt. Cristobal Rodriguez wrecked in 1563 in a shoal of Fl this vessel had 28 bronze cannons. Reported cargo 50 pounds of silver, 170 chests of worked silver and 1,100 pounds of gold
as per Marx some years ago a shrimpboat snagged a bronze cannon from the time period....but the general area is not mentioned...

Another interesting incident in 1571 2 vessels "San Ignacio" and "Santa Maria de Limpia Concepcion" were wrecked by a storm carring 2,500,000 pesos. The survivors made it to St. Augustine in 2 longboats. A salvage attempt was done by the Spaniards but nothing was found.

What about this one 1600 unknown name 200 ton ship commanded by Capt. Diego Rodriguez wrecked in the coast of Fl carrying 700,000 pesos and 245 chest of Oriental goods. Only seven men survived...Salvage efforts were done in 1602 but only 3 bronze cannons were found......

All the best,

Chagy.....

 

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[FISHEYE]

Re: More wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

I know theres a wreck off daytona somewhere in 300 feet of water with gold bars.a friend that owned a dive shop had 2 guys come in an wanted him to teach them trimix.they had a 10lb gold bar they showed him an said they snagged it in a shrimp net in 300 feet of water off daytona 30 something miles out somewhere.the 2 guys werent even scuba divers so he told them he would have to teach them everything before the trimix course.he never heard from them again.the gold bar had no markings an they also said that they did some research an there was 4 other ships from a fleet in the same area.i did some poking around down at the docks at the port.the shrimpers there arent very friendly.i do know a few people that have gps snag hits that i can get a hold of.they are worth checking out.havent heard of anyone working a wreck site off daytona,so they may have givin up.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: More wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

La Madelena was reportedly lost on a shoal near cape canaveral* only 16 out of 300 survived --- source -- singers "shipwrecks of florida" -- he uses as his source-- marx's book "spanish treasure in florida waters, a billion dollar graveyard" 1979 -- later "updated" in 1985 and retitled as "shipwrecks in florida waters" --the part about it being lost near the cape canveral area must be in the 1979 book --the updated one fails to say where it was lost at oddly-- humm

the unnamed nao lost in 1600 was french built according to marxs "shipwrecks in the americas"

don't know if its the same "San Ignacio" but potter talks about a ship by that name in 12 ft of water near duck key P 229 (#36)---(no date of sinking but I think its a 1733 fleet wreck by the same "religious" name as that of the earlier vessel which is of course quite common)--- what makes me think that is potter has it linked with the San Fernando* P.228 (#33) off coffin's patch --*Chuck Mitchell of key largo said that he and others moved to marathon and dove 5 months before hitting the San Fernando -- said they found two 1732 pillar coins and many dated cobs found as well as a silver sword and many other items --

interesting note in his book "shipwrecks in florida waters" on p 70 (#25)-- marx notes that in 1571* or 2 that a letter written by was written by* Adelantado Pedro Menendez de Aviles (translated by --Jeanette Thrubar Conner in 1925 for the fla hist soc -- on page 31 vol 1 of a 2 vol set -- titled --"Colonial Records of Spanish Florida") -- that two ships going from mexico to santo domingo?* for a cargo of sugar and hides* was hit by a storm off of cape canveral*? and sank and most of the men were killed by indains while trying to return to st augustine 30 leagues away (30 leagues is 78 miles at 2.6 miles to the spanish leauge)-- I find it odd that if they were after sugar and hides* and going from mexico to santo domingo* ( a fairly straight across voyage) -- then how in gods name did they get so off course as to sink near cape canaveral? hummm --very strange--what if sugar and hides were code words being used for gold and silver? -- could the two vessels really be the two 1571 treasure galleons possibly? ( the offical record states that they didn't get to try a salvage ops for seveal months and nothing was found -- maybe because they were lost in area full of a lot of hostile indains? and the indains looted the wrecksites which is why nothing was found by them later) seems like he would not be bothered so much by a couple of sugar and hide ships -- and the question remains--- if they going "from mexico bound for santo domingo for sugar and hides""--then why they were lost near the cape? this is very very far from where they should have been at -- the area would be more likely the area where treasure ships would be lost travelling on thier return voyage loaded with treasure forr spain ,,, just thinking,,, Ivan

 

[Claudio]

Re: More wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

In 1600 got lost a ship with 250 tons from New Spain "Nuestra Senora de la Concepcion" but it was near the Bermuda not in Florida. What's the historical source for this shipwreck??

 

[ivan salis]

Re: More wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

my source is book by robert marx --"shipwrecks in florida waters" P 74 (#39) year 1600 Unnamed 200 ton nao of Capt Diego Rodriguez, originally built in france coming from mexico with the Flota de Nurva Espana sank on the coast of florida --- marx list his source as --- AGI Contratacion legajo 2899

 

[cpt scuba]

Re: More wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

has anyone asked jack haskins about all this

 

[Chagy]

Re: More wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Well I was able to verify the existence of "La Magdalena" in "Seville et l'Atlantique" "Le trafic de 1561 a 1595
1563R page 44

Then in "Armada Espanola" by Duro Vol II page 465 I was able to confirm that the vessel belonged to the fleet of Juan Mendez it says that 5 vessels were lost near Bahamas....but thats all it says.....
it does have a source: Reg. del C. de I., fol. 68.

In Marx book it says that there were 16 suvivors but it does not say where did they arrive
he does give a source: AGI, contratacion, legajo 2899

Also Marx talks about a shrimpboat that in 1983 snagged a bronze cannon dated 1500s
Does anyone here know anything about this story?

All the best,

Chagy......

 

[FISHEYE]

Re: More wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Chagy,

Go to libraries.check the newspapers for around the date the cannon was found by the shrimper.im sure it made the news.also go to the port an ask around where all the shrimp boats are docked to see if anyone knows who found the cannon.they may be retired by now but im sure someone knows.if you dont want to go,i will ask around on my way down to my boat.there used to be shrimp boats out of new smyrna beach and daytona but not anymore.most of the shrimp they get is off the cape.prime area.shrimpers may soon be out of biz due to lots of imported shrimp from all over the world for alot cheaper then the shrimpers can get it here.last night i did alittle research on shrimping and the nets they use.they can work in 12 feet or more of water.if whoever found the cannon in shallow water im sure there would be more info.most likely it was in deep water more than 100 foot.

 

[Chagy]

Re: More wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Chagy,

Go to libraries.check the newspapers for around the date the cannon was found by the shrimper.im sure it made the news.also go to the port an ask around where all the shrimp boats are docked to see if anyone knows who found the cannon.they may be retired by now but im sure someone knows.if you dont want to go,i will ask around on my way down to my boat.there used to be shrimp boats out of new smyrna beach and daytona but not anymore.most of the shrimp they get is off the cape.prime area.shrimpers may soon be out of biz due to lots of imported shrimp from all over the world for alot cheaper then the shrimpers can get it here.last night i did alittle research on shrimping and the nets they use.they can work in 12 feet or more of water.if whoever found the cannon in shallow water im sure there would be more info.most likely it was in deep water more than 100 foot.

Ohhh!!!! I thought you didnt believe in old man stories .....Seriously that would be very nice of you..maybe we can find out the general area were it was found....

I will be in Sebastian on the week of the 15 to the 20 to meet with the crew of the "Conquistador" I want to take some time and go to St. Augustine to do a little bit of research...

Thanks,

Chagy......

 

[Chagy]

Re: More wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

I also checked the book of Carlos Millas to verify this hurricane in 1563 and this is what i found:

This supposed hurricane is mentioned in the lists of Poey and Evans. No other table or catalogues of hurricanes refer to this case. Poey quotes Bohun(1671 pag 260) and provably Evans also fallows him.

All the best,

Chagy....

 

[signumops]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Chagy made this post and I started looking for a quote in one of the books in my library which I thought would be helpful. To wit: a quote by Doug Armstrong (no relation to me) who has a long history digging on the space coast and the treasure coast. He is a conservator who has published several papers, including...

FRENCH CASTAWAYS
at
OLD CAPE CANAVERAL


by Douglas R. Armstrong

Revised 2002
Copyright 1996, 2004 by Douglas R. Armstrong
1618 Emmaus Rd. NW
Palm Bay, FL. 32907
All Rights Reserved

... which is on CD only in Word format. It is an EXCELLENT read for anyone researching old shipwrecks along the spacecoast, particularly the Canaveral area. Doug, the NPS, John DeBry and others excavated the Silver Palm site and another site in Mosquito Lagoon, not far from the preserved settlement of Eldora, inside the Canaveral National Seashore. In his paper, Doug has many significant photos of Mexican 4 reales from the Carlos/Juana period, along with French coinage, all from these locales. Aside from what is reported in this document, there are other folks who have reported finding significant numbers of Mexican mint reales at other nearby locations inside of the park.

But, the quote from Doug's work that stuck with me was the remark made by John Hawkins as he visited the French Settlement on the River of May (St. Johns) in N. Florida during 1565. Paraphrased by Doug Armstrong, Hawkins said the masts of Mexican ship wrecks were to be seen in the area of the Cape (possibly Bull Shoals, ect.). Armstrong then re-considered that it would have been impossible to determine if these were Mexican vessels.

Hawkins has a remarkable amount of published material originating within his lifetime that has been added to other documentaries in English Literature. But, in 1575 a recounting of his 1565 voyage was made by one of the crewmen aboard the "Jesus of Lubeck". It is a fascinating read that is public domain and available as a PDF. It is not digitized to ASCII, but is still in graphic form. I have inserted two adjoining passages wherein the Frenchmen are explaining the gold and silver had by the Ais people. Note that one of the indians traded 2 POUNDS of gold for a hatchet...

According to Singer in "Shipwrecks of Florida", the appropriate vessels sinking along the mid coast of East Florida in 1551 and 1553-4 as might be described in the previous passages were the San Nicolas and two others, per Fontenada. Singer quotes Marx for the 1553 cites as the Santa Maria del Camino, the Santa Maria de Yciar, and a third, almost all of which were salvaged. The cited location is the Rio Palmas (once again in the area of Sebastian) at 26 degrees, 30 minutes North. This is probably a fairly reliable citation of latitude, if it is a legitimate report. However 27 degrees, 30 minutes North is almost exactly at the old Indian River Inlet (the original Fort Pierce Inlet). 26 degrees, 30 minutes is much further south toward Jupiter. Which is right? Who can vouch for the Rio Palmas namesake?

 

[Chagy]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Hello Terry,

Thanks for sharing.....great reading!!!!

All the best,

Chagy.....

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Terry wrote: The cited location is the Rio Palmas (once again in the area of Sebastian) at 26 degrees, 30 minutes North. This is probably a fairly reliable citation of latitude, if it is a legitimate report. However 27 degrees, 30 minutes North is almost exactly at the old Indian River Inlet (the original Fort Pierce Inlet). 26 degrees, 30 minutes is much further south toward Jupiter. Which is right? Who can vouch for the Rio Palmas namesake?

It helps here to have a little bit of knowledge about the means of measuring latitude back in 1563 and the sources for errors in each. The instruments available to navigators for this purpose were the quadrant, the cross staff and the astrolabe.

In 1563 the quadrant was probably most commonly used on land to make Pole-Star observations. In the sixteenth century the distance of Polaris from the pole was significantly greater than today, about 3 degrees, and not accurately determined until the very end of that century. Thus Pole-Star readings, depending on the time of day of the observation and the relative positions of the stars, were subject to an error that ranged from zero to plus or minus just over a half degree.

With the cross staff, the main problem was instrument parallax. If the end of the staff was not placed so that the top surface was in the exact center of the eye, and the scale was not an exact distance from the focal plane of the eye, the angle could not be determined correctly. The resulting error could be quite large, a whole degree of arc or more.

The astrolabe was a reliable method of measuring altitude, but the navigator's ability to read the degree scales along the rim was a limiting factor on the precision of the observation. Each degree division for a typical 7-inch diameter instrument was only about one-sixteenth of an inch, so the navigator could read the angle only to the nearest half degree.

As with the quadrant, the navigator's ability to make an astrolabe sighting at sea could be extremely difficult due to the movement of the ship.

I am sure Terry remembers very well the difficulty we all had back in the early 90's on the 1715 fleet, taking sextant readings from a rocking boat on shore markers posted at the base of the dunes. And the closer you were to shore, the harder (and less accurate) this procedure became.


Tom

 

[ivan salis]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

ah the english bark "Tiger" listed at 50 tons in the beginning as part of hawkins fleet must have been the vessel that he left with the french in jacksonville in 1565 --- its states they left (sold?) a vessel of 50 tons with the french at their request. the Tiger is the only 50 ton vessel listed in the original fleet list of vessels (the other 3 original vessels were (Jesus of Lubek) 700 tons -- (Salomon ) 140 tons and (Swallow) 30 tons thus it must have been the "Tiger" they left with the french --- its was noted that there was a 80 ton french vessel and 2 smaller 15 ton pinnesses at anchor upon Hawkin's arrival at the May River as it was called by the french back then (it is now know as the St John's River) Ivan

 

[Chagy]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Tom,

I knew there was a reason for me to like you so much Thanks for sharing your knowledge...that was great!!

Ivan,

As always thanks for sharing your knowledge.....

All the best,

Chagy.....

 

[Rustys Mate]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

I think you mean Madelena don't you? I think the Magdelena is being salvaged off the coast of Ecuador.
Link below, I was looking for info on Madelena
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=1123e2986ba6693e9168ae00c910e8f6&topic=79999.0

 

[Rustys Mate]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

http://thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast.com/treasures30.html

This tells what was supposed to be aboard and tells of the shrimp fisherman that brought up a bronze cannon in their nets.

 

[Chagy]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Hello Rustys Mate

The information you provided came from a book by R. Marx which has 2 typos or mistakes #1 the correct name is "Magdalena" #2 the Capt. name is not Cristobel but Cristobal....you can verify what I am saying
in "Seville et l'Atalntique"

All the best,

Chagy....

 

[Chagy]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

I think you mean Madelena don't you? I think the Magdelena is being salvaged off the coast of Ecuador.
Link below, I was looking for info on Madelena
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=1123e2986ba6693e9168ae00c910e8f6&topic=79999.0

Hi,

Keep in mind that there were many Magdalena, Santiago, Concepcion, etc., etc.

Chagy.....

 

[ivan salis]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

yes the maddingly common "religious names" often used over and over again by the spanish on their vessels--- causing wrecks by the same name to be at differant places and at differant times ( often many years apart) makes researchers hair turn gray