1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

[Chagy]

This is another interesting wreck in the east coast of Fl
1683 "El Grande" commanded by Admiral Manuel Ortiz
She was carrying 1,800,000 pesos, 1,500 pounds of gold, 77 chests of pearls, 49 chests of emeralds and 217 chest of oriental goods....All her cannons were bronze

Has anyone found any evidence of this wreck?

Chagy.....

[FISHEYE]

In 1683, the 700 ton galleon, “Santissima Concepcion,” alias “El Grande,” commanded by Admiral Manual Ortiz Arosemena, heading for Spain after taking on treasures at Porto Bello, Panama; Cartagena, Colombia; Veracruz, Mexico; and making a stop at Havana, was totally destroyed after striking a shallow during a hurricane somewhere below the “Cape.” Of the 500 or more souls aboard her only four reached the coast on debris and made it to St. Augustine with great hardships. She was carrying over 1,800,000 pesos in treasure, the majority of which was silver bullion and specie. Her total gold consisting of bullion, specie and worked gold only weighed at around 1,500 pounds. However, gold was the most common object being smuggled and she probably carried ten times this amount as contraband. She also carried 77 chests of pearls, 49 chests of emeralds, 217 chests of “goods from the Orient,” and other valuables belonging to private persons (passengers). Repeated attempts to locate her were made almost yearly up until 1701. The only treasure ever found was a chest of clothes that washed ashore right after the disaster in which “some 1,500 pesos in unregistered gold jewelry” was discovered by soldiers sent down from St. Augustine. All her cannon were bronze.

Less than a year ago i talked with a Psyhic online.she knew nothing about me or what i was into.but she did say that within 2 years i would find the El Grande shipwreck.i thought this was interesting.so now i will look for it.

[ivan salis]

worth noting -- the only item found was "1500 pesos worth of illegal gold jewelry" found hidden in a in a chest of clothes--- by soldiers sent "down" from St Augustine -- thus the wreck must have been below st augustine and not too far away because the chest reportedly washed ashore right after the disaster --

[Claudio]

In 1987 I undertook an intense historical research for Peter Throckmorton about a rich galleon shipwrecked in the Bahamas called "....... EL GRANDE." To the view the information is in a map of Roman. I didn't find neither a word of this galleon. It was a ghost shipwreck invented by a "well-known character". Now I think that it is possible that it is the same one.
What's the source for the that "Santisima Trinidad alias El Grande" from 1683??

[ivan salis]

my source is robert marx book --"shipwrecks in florida waters" ----"Santissima Concepcion" alias "El Grande" on P 80 / 81 -- marx list his source as----- AGI Santo Domingo legajo 167

[Claudio]

Ivan, the information of 1600 is positive (but I think that it didn't happen in Florida, but between Florida and Bahamas). About "......... El Grande", this it is in fact the historical research that I undertook for Peter Throckmorton !

[Chagy]

Hello Claudio, Ivan and others

Well I heard from Walter Cardona that there is lots of confusion with these wrecks and that the nickname of El Grande was give by Marx for the wreck found in Bahamas....

Would it be logical for the survivors to make it to Fl from Bahamas when Bahamas has so many small islands
and would it be logical for things to wash ashore south of St. Agustine....
I think it would be worth a while checking on Marx source to see what it says....
Claudio by any chance do you have copies of Marxs source?

All the best,

Chagy.......

[Claudio]

"..... El Grande" that I verified for Throckmorton in 1987 was a ghost shipwreck that cost 500,000 boxes for some incautious investors. That "...... El Grande" didn't exist and it was given lost in Bahamas. Peter already died, but I continue having his letters and opinion of the matter and the "inventor" of the matter.

[FISHEYE]

Any ship wrecked in the bahamas, debris from it isnt going to wash up on florida beaches shortly afterwards.either are the survivors.unless the survivors rode some wreckage to the florida coast that was blown by high winds.i dont believe there was any survivors.if there was there would be documented proof.the gulf stream would carry whats left out to the middle of the atlantic if it was wrecked east of the gulf stream.there were alot of ships named "Concepcion" wrecked all over the world.whats does Santissima Concepcion? mean in spanish?

[Chagy]

Concepcion is a female proper name and Santissima Concepcion means Holly Concepcion

[Chagy]

Any ship wrecked in the bahamas, debris from it isnt going to wash up on florida beaches shortly afterwards.either are the survivors.unless the survivors rode some wreckage to the florida coast that was blown by high winds.i dont believe there was any survivors.

As per Marx there were 4 survivors that made it to Florida and were rescued by soldiers from the St. Augustine fort....
AGI, Santo Domingp, legajo 167.

there must be some kind of testimony from the survivors......And if the vessel had so much valuable cargo the Spaniard must have tried to salvage it....

[FISHEYE]

The Spaniards didnt salvage it because they couldnt find it.is there any documented accounts from the survivors as to what happened?

[ivan salis]

marx 's wreck listed on page 80 / 81 "shipwrecks in florida waters" book ---list the 700 ton galleon --- "Santissima Concepcion" which is reported as wrecking in 1683* not 1600 --- its commanding officer was Admiral Manual Ortiz Arosemena --- he was headed for spain after taking on treasures in porto bello, panama - cartagena, colombia - veracruz, mexico - and stopping in havana --she was totally distroyed after hitting a shallow -- out of 500 onboard on 4 survived by floating on debris from the wreckage to shore where they made it to st augustine after great hardship -- she was carrying 1,800,000 pesos in treasure --mainly silver coin and bullion -- her "offical" total gold onboard was only about 1500 lbs -- however smuggling was rampent at the time so much more maybe aboard--also offically listed was 77 chest of pearls --40 chests of emeralds--217 chest of items from the orient and other "valuibles" owned by private persons--due to the wealth aboard her many attempts made to find her until 1701 -- the only "treasure" recoverd was 1500 pesos of "unregistered " (being smuggled) gold jewelry found in a chest of clothes that was washed up on shore shortly after the wreck and found by soldiers "sent" down from st augustine. -- note** all of her cannon are bronze so it will not "ring" up easily on a mag --- Ivan

[mad4wrecks]

her "offical" total gold onboard was only about 1500 lbs

Only? With the current bullion price of gold, that works out to over $17 million dollars!

It would be nice to get a better idea of where the Santissima Concepcion wrecked other than to the "south of Cape Canaveral." That leaves quite a bit of water to cover!

(Ivan, get on this!)

Another ship worth looking in to is the La Magdalena, sunk in 1563 on shoals off Cape Canaveral. Almost as rich as the Santissima Concepcion. 50 tons of silver bullion and specie, 170 chests of worked silver, 1,100 pounds of gold bullion and jewelry plus valuable belonging to 300 passengers. In 1970 a bronze cannon was snagged by a shrimper's net and raised. It bore the date 1560.

[signumops]

Chagy:
Could Lubos get at the documents in Santo Domingo? You know, the El Grande, per se is not continually mentioned in the Marx shipwreck series. I have about 5 of them and he did not consistently carry through with mention of it from volume to volume like he did with others. Singer makes mention of it, but only as a citation from "Shipwrecks In Florida Waters" by Marx. Claudio has the La Magdalena (AGI Contratacion, 733) mentioned in his appendices as sailing in 1591... "Galeones Con Tesoros". I don't really read Spanish, so I am just making a layman's interpretation here. I looked at Potter and Petersen too and could not see anything more about it. A mystery, but a great nickname "EL GRANDE!"

[Chagy]

Chagy:
Could Lubos get at the documents in Santo Domingo? You know, the El Grande, per se is not continually mentioned in the Marx shipwreck series. I have about 5 of them and he did not consistently carry through with mention of it from volume to volume like he did with others. Singer makes mention of it, but only as a citation from "Shipwrecks In Florida Waters" by Marx. Claudio has the La Magdalena (AGI Contratacion, 733) mentioned in his appendices as sailing in 1591... "Galeones Con Tesoros". I don't really read Spanish, so I am just making a layman's interpretation here. I looked at Potter and Petersen too and could not see anything more about it. A mystery, but a great nickname "EL GRANDE!"

I send you a PM...check your mail(inbox)

[mad4wrecks]

My feeling is that more than a few ships ended up on the shoals at the very south east of the Cape.

[mad4wrecks]

An incident involving a US Treasure Salvage Company's search for the Santiago El Grande, was the reason the Bahamian government suspended Treasure Hunting in the Bahamas. Dell

Can you tell us more Dell? It is helpful to understand how others have screwed up before us, so we don't repeat their mistakes in the future.

[Chagy]

I think this is why the confusion....two different "El Grande"
Claudio says he did some research back in 1987on "El Grande" I wonder if its the "Santissima Concepcion" or "Santiago" the one that Claudio did the research on....

[ivan salis]

bingo -- "el grande" was a "nick name" -- the spanish had a madding habit ---they multi named their vessels --- often the first name was the "religious" name --after the owners patron saint or another "holy" name --- the second name was the "offical" name often rather long and cumbersome --- the third name was the "nick name" given to the vessels often --- since several vessels of a fleet could be owned by the same owner (as was the case of Echeverz's part of the 1715 fleet -- you might wind up with several say SAN MIGUEL vessels -- the SENOR SAN MIGUEL a nao loaded with tabbaco and silver -- the SAN MIGUEL AKA "offically" as SENORA DE LA POPA or the nick name 's--THE DUTCH PRIZE or OLANDESA (DUTCH IN SPANISH) AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST A SMALL ENGLISH BLANDRA CLASS VESSEL aka as the SAN MIGUEL DE EXCELSIS ---- the fact that many vessels with the same (or highly similar) religious names sank often times many years apart off the florida coast often causes heated debate between researchers at times as to which is which -- I see claudo says the word "trinadad" so maybe there not the same vessel ---one was 1600 the other 1683 -- they just had similar "nick name" or alias as some call it of "EL GRANDE" --- which could be highly possible indeed) Ivan