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  1. #16
    us
    ARC

    Aug 2014
    Bahia Espiritu Santo de Tampa - La Florida
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    No...

    English carrack was loaned in the late 14th century, via Old French caraque, from carraca, a term for a large, square-rigged sailing vessel used in Spanish, Italian and Middle Latin.

    These ships were called carraca or nau in Portuguese and Genoese, carabela or nao in Spanish, caraque or nef in French, and kraak in Dutch.
    Have permission... Fill holes... Dispose of trash. - The Random Chat Thread - http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/ev...en-24-7-a.html

  2. #17
    Perpetual Student of Life

    May 2019
    Midwest
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandre View Post
    It was a crown owned Eastindiaman "nau".

    Correct name is "Chagas" (not "Las Cinque Chagas", which manages to have three words from Spanish, French and Portuguese on the same name).

    It burned to the water level and sunk in depths of between 1.5 and 2 miles, off Fayal Island.
    Hi, Alexandre. Do you happen to know where i can find information on the captain of the nau, Cinque Chagas? i cannot find anything at all about him in books or the internet. (wiki on the Action of Faial says "Francisco de Melo Canaveado", but there is literally nothing else about him. Is "Canaveado" a place? Or is Melo and Canaveado part of the same surename?

    Also, are we certain that the nau was crown-owned? I'm aware that a Viceroy of India had it built (Constantino de Braganza), but it was built in 1560 and 34 years seems like a tremendous duration for a ship to stay in commission. i'm just suggesting, is there a chance it could've been decommissioned or privately-owned? Or is it possible that the viceroy used personal funds instead of state funds to build it, and thus was a privately-owned ship? i suppose it wouldnt be unheard of; i believe the three privateer ships that sank the nau were privately-owned. Also, was it normal for a crown ship to transport so many women, children, merchants, and slaves aboard?

  3. #18
    pt
    Oct 2009
    Lisbon
    879
    202 times
    The nau Chagas was carrying people from two other wrecked ships. Many years ago, on another century, I wrote a text on this one, you can find it google translated, here:



    https://translate.google.pt/translat...a-Chagas01.htm



    Quote Originally Posted by Zach_B View Post
    Hi, Alexandre. Do you happen to know where i can find information on the captain of the nau, Cinque Chagas? i cannot find anything at all about him in books or the internet. (wiki on the Action of Faial says "Francisco de Melo Canaveado", but there is literally nothing else about him. Is "Canaveado" a place? Or is Melo and Canaveado part of the same surename?

    Also, are we certain that the nau was crown-owned? I'm aware that a Viceroy of India had it built (Constantino de Braganza), but it was built in 1560 and 34 years seems like a tremendous duration for a ship to stay in commission. i'm just suggesting, is there a chance it could've been decommissioned or privately-owned? Or is it possible that the viceroy used personal funds instead of state funds to build it, and thus was a privately-owned ship? i suppose it wouldnt be unheard of; i believe the three privateer ships that sank the nau were privately-owned. Also, was it normal for a crown ship to transport so many women, children, merchants, and slaves aboard?
    Zach_B likes this.

  4. #19
    br
    Jul 2018
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    The term Nau generally relates to the shape of the hull.

    The Portuguese Nau developed over time, from 300 to 600 tons..The East India Nau appears to have a particular flavor...
    but, in the 16th century, ships were built without written plans.
    As one an imagine, a ship of 300 tons would be different than 600 tons.

    Arguing semantics (especially with a native speaker), especially when significant documentation has been provided.

    on the issue, carraca is Genoese...

    Getting back to the OP question: Sovereign.
    Last edited by xaos; May 16, 2019 at 07:47 PM.
    Alexandre likes this.
    I love the taste of water, frozen into squares, and surrounded by rum

  5. #20
    us
    Feb 2004
    lake mary florida
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    That wreck is doable with a ROV.Im surprised no one has gone after it yet.https://webapp.navionics.com/?lang=e...y=y_hjF%7CmomD
    AARC likes this.
    Millions of dollars of Spanish treasure await those who would dare brave the eye of the hurricane.

  6. #21
    pt
    Oct 2009
    Lisbon
    879
    202 times
    The ship was not sunk on Fayal channel, it was sunk some 15 to 20 miles south, where depths are deeper than 2000 meters.



    Quote Originally Posted by FISHEYE View Post
    That wreck is doable with a ROV.Im surprised no one has gone after it yet.https://webapp.navionics.com/?lang=e...y=y_hjF%7CmomD

  7. #22
    br
    Jul 2018
    448
    535 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    There have been attempts to search for this wreck.

    As with all of these $Billion dollar wrecks, I feel that some common sense needs to prevail.

    In the day, spice was far more valuable that anything else, worth many times that of gold or silver. Pepper was the most valuable. Today, a wreck full of pepper corns is worthless.

    Chests full of rubies, diamonds and such. Here we go, while perhaps valuable once sorted, but in reality, as we have seen from many wrecks, these gemstones were not of the value and clarity we seek today, some are, but well, who knows...

    The ship was either partially recovered or blasted to pieces, depending on which accounts you believe..
    Lets say not recoverered, and blasted. Where would loose stones be? Scattered and sunk to a soft bottom. On a good day, this would be tough enough to locate.

    There were at least 2 major earthquakes and undersea landslides in this area since the sinking.

    Searches have not even been able to located major pieces like cannon...good luck with stones.

    Keep it as a legend and keep your money...as always, likely sovereign, so there are far easier wrecks to located/recover if you are in the mood.
    Last edited by xaos; May 16, 2019 at 07:44 PM.
    Zach_B likes this.
    I love the taste of water, frozen into squares, and surrounded by rum

  8. #23
    Perpetual Student of Life

    May 2019
    Midwest
    2
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    also, the volcano on faial errupted in 1957, which likely covered the site with a generous amount soot/ash

  9. #24
    pt
    Oct 2009
    Lisbon
    879
    202 times
    Some 20 kms away, on the coast of Fayal Island, on depths of less than 15 meters, lies the wreckage of the "Nossa Senhora da Luz", the India fleet nau-capitania, sunk there november the 7th, 1615, which I located after a 4 year search.

    She was carrying a real treasure, amassed by the Portuguese adventurer and mercenary, Filipe Brito de Nicote, who would later kill his burmese employer and become king of Birmany (then Kingdom of Pegu) in his place, to be even later impaled by another local ruler.

    Nicote sent part of the fabulous Pegu treasure to Lisbon on board that ship. The greater part of it was never recovered.

    My report, with the archaeological, historical and archival research, and some of the Ming porcelain recovered on the recon dive that located the wreck, attached.



    Quote Originally Posted by xaos View Post
    There have been attempts to search for this wreck.

    As with all of these $Billion dollar wrecks, I feel that some common sense needs to prevail.

    In the day, spice was far more valuable that anything else, worth many times that of gold or silver. Pepper was the most valuable. Today, a wreck full of pepper corns is worthless.

    Chests full of rubies, diamonds and such. Here we go, while perhaps valuable once sorted, but in reality, as we have seen from many wrecks, these gemstones were not of the value and clarity we seek today, some are, but well, who knows...

    The ship was either partially recovered or blasted to pieces, depending on which accounts you believe..
    Lets say not recoverered, and blasted. Where would loose stones be? Scattered and sunk to a soft bottom. On a good day, this would be tough enough to locate.

    There were at least 2 major earthquakes and undersea landslides in this area since the sinking.

    Searches have not even been able to located major pieces like cannon...good luck with stones.

    Keep it as a legend and keep your money...as always, likely sovereign, so there are far easier wrecks to located/recover if you are in the mood.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    xaos likes this.

  10. #25
    pt
    Oct 2009
    Lisbon
    879
    202 times
    As for the kind of cargo these ships would have, here's a Our Lady of the Conception, with Baby Jesus, carved in ivory, in the midst of a concretion of India pepper corns and Ming porcelain, recovered September 2018 by the two finders of the site, on the entrance of the Tagus river, from 12 meters deep, from the wreck I believe to be the "São Francisco Xavier", sunk 23 October 1625.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    xaos and PetesPockets55 like this.

  11. #26
    br
    Jul 2018
    448
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    Zach, on your question. There is sometimes confusion between State owned and Sovereign. Back in the day, there was really little difference.
    A King, or other titles, such as Viceroy, were considered as addressing a Sovereign. Kingdoms combined to make Countries.
    One has to remember that many of what we call present day Countries did not exist even 100 or 200 years ago.

    As an example, Italy did not unify the Kingdoms until 1861, and present day Italy was not a Country until 1946!
    PetesPockets55 likes this.
    I love the taste of water, frozen into squares, and surrounded by rum

 

 
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