ask me your 1715 fleet questions,,,,,see if i can answer em

[Boatlode]

Why was the Nieves carrying so much gold?

Because maybe it's not the Nieves.

 

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[ARC]

Yes, I detected from Vero beach up past Sebastian inlet for over a year and still do. Do you have any reliable info on a ship or 2 that made it further North before being wrecked near shore?
thanks.

Reliable info was and is lacking concerning anything as to locations of anything not yet found.

What does your "gut" tell you ?

 

[Jason in Enid]

Reliable info was and is lacking concerning anything as to locations of anything not yet found.

What does your "gut" tell you ?

I've always felt that if the missing ships had been driven aground like the known ships, there would have been plenty more survivors and the wreck locations would have been known and salvaged. The fact the Spanish didnt know their fate, leads me to think they went down farther out to sea (although very possibly north of the known wrecks). The thing is, experienced captains would know that in a storm, a shore line is death. The shallow water amplifies the wave height, so its safer in multiple ways if you can get out over deep water.

 

[ARC]

I've always felt that if the missing ships had been driven aground like the known ships, there would have been plenty more survivors and the wreck locations would have been known and salvaged. The fact the Spanish didnt know their fate, leads me to think they went down farther out to sea (although very possibly north of the known wrecks). The thing is, experienced captains would know that in a storm, a shore line is death. The shallow water amplifies the wave height, so its safer in multiple ways if you can get out over deep water.

Well well...

Someone else here seems to "read between the lines".

 

[tarpon192]

Ivan, are there any goodies in the IRL across from any of the wreck sites, and anything in deeper water off the reefs to the east - 40 to 50ft?
Question applies from Sebastian inlet to PSL.
I hope all is good on your end, and you are well.
GPS coordinates would be great - contact me through t-net and don't post nothing here. I can send a carrier pigeion if needed to get the info-lol.
Thanks.

 

[smokeythecat]

Ok, any guess as to the number of silver pieces and the number of gold pieces DETECTORISTS have recovered from the beaches?

 

[Billieg]

IVAN has left the room....

 

[ARC]

Ok, any guess as to the number of silver pieces and the number of gold pieces DETECTORISTS have recovered from the beaches?

lol... wellllllll this would be REAL HARD....

For years people found coins along that stretch LONG before it was commonly known that wrecks were there.

Kip Wagner was one of the original guys who combed the beaches in search of "oreo's" after Captain Steadmsan Parker told him that wrecks were said to be offshore.

People that lived along that area had collected piles of them over the years prior to his arrival on the scene.

This was back in 50's 60's.

 

[franklin]

Yes, I detected from Vero beach up past Sebastian inlet for over a year and still do. Do you have any reliable info on a ship or 2 that made it further North before being wrecked near shore?
thanks.

A recovery ship was sent out from Havana, Cuba. They picked up the Aristocrats and a whole lot of the treasure. They sank again off of 9th Street Fernandina Beach. Coins have been found washed upon the beach. I told Mel Fisher while he was living and Kip Wagner's son got a State Permit on the site. I do not know if they have recovered any of the treasure or not? This was recorded in the Letters of Alexander Spotswood right after the shipwreck. Daniel Boone and Mingo walked to Florida in search of the gold. They got as far as Jacksonville, Fla. then cut across to Pensacola and returned home.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Your answer in part lies within your post.

The Atocha and Concepcion are in deeper water. That makes their remains more intact and easier to salvage.

The 1715 Fleet is in the high energy shallow water environment. This make it much more difficult for salvage.

Paint this picture, you have treasure in water, open water 30 - 56 ft deep. Easier working.
You have treasure in water, rocky outcropping bottom shallow water, (not reefs - it's true and not just because the Govt is watching ) with depths from the shore on out to about 30ft of water.

So since the modern salvage started the easy pickins, the middle ground, middle depth of the sites where the methodology and equipment of the times were most effective had the most salvage work. The harder areas, closer to shore and deeper water weren't worked, since well, you got it, they were harder to work, equipment wasn't as efficient and cost would be higher. That and why leave areas that were constantly providing treasure to "go look elsewhere".

A perfect example of this is in Pieces of Eight. Kip Wagner talks about some bronze cannon on a wreck. He also talks about and area with wreckage and is considered an "unknown" site. They are so busy pulling up gold and silver and lacking people that they can't even explore the bronze cannons further. They get stolen away in the middle of the night by someone else. That wreck site we now believe to be the 1618 Honduran Almiranta, which has produce some nice treasure over the years.

The "unknown" site is what we now know as Corrigan's site which has produced millions in treasure.

Speaking of Corrigan's site and another part to your questions. Not recalling exact numbers. If you were to mow the lawn with mailbox excavation using a liberal excavation measurement, taking into account an "average season" of 60 work days, an average amount of excavation accomplished, it would take something like 62 years to excavate the site. In the past several years 60 work days hasn't been reached which makes that 62 years grow exponentially.

So now back to the high energy shallow water environment.

Imagine recovering treasure in a location that the tide and time of day might only line up 3 times a month. Then you have to have weather, sea conditions line up with those. Often when all that does line up you still may get only 6 hours of actual excavation/recovery time.

As Mel used to say, "If it was easy, everyone would do it."

Oh but umm wait... no, no, no it's all been found, there's nothing to find, move along, move along. *wink*

There are people that want people to think that.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

IMHO, The King was 99.9% concerned with his treasure and not that of others. The Capital ships of the fleet where his treasure was mostly located was where salvage efforts were focused upon.

WaveJunky757; "That’s the definition of finding a needle in a haystack."

We're looking for a needle in a stack of needles.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

What is the exact wording the Spanish used in "1715 documents" that identified what we know as Cape Canaveral?

 

[Au_Dreamers]

WaveJunky757; "My theory is that the 1715 was salvaged much much more extensively than we realize, or more than people want to admit. Is there any salvage record of say late 1800s turn of the century? Has poaching this last century been way more rampant than publicized? Did the Indians get more than we ever imagined? Too much just dosent add up.Or is there a lot of hush hush to keep the investors there to keep the wheel always turning."

In short. Nobody knows for certain. We have archival documents that tell us what was salvaged and manifests of what was there.

Arguments can be made about there being more than the registered treasure aka contraband. Arguments can be made that the Spanish salvaged more than they reported. Surely the wreck sites being known at the time had men coming to fish upon them for years.

Modern history proves what the Spanish and others didn't recover. Millions, tens of millions in treasure has been recovered in the modern salvage era, Real 8 forward. Just in the last several years, several millions in treasure have been recovered.

That last statement is pretty unfair... A more thorough understanding of the 1715 Fleet and modern salvage operations would dispel such notions. - Cheers

 

[ARC]

What is the exact wording the Spanish used in "1715 documents" that identified what we know as Cape Canaveral?

This is from Spanish map around 1710.

 

[Billieg]

WaveJunky757; "My theory is that the 1715 was salvaged much much more extensively than we realize, or more than people want to admit. Is there any salvage record of say late 1800s turn of the century? Has poaching this last century been way more rampant than publicized? Did the Indians get more than we ever imagined? Too much just dosent add up.Or is there a lot of hush hush to keep the investors there to keep the wheel always turning."

In short. Nobody knows for certain. We have archival documents that tell us what was salvaged and manifests of what was there.

Arguments can be made about there being more than the registered treasure aka contraband. Arguments can be made that the Spanish salvaged more than they reported. Surely the wreck sites being known at the time had men coming to fish upon them for years.

Modern history proves what the Spanish and others didn't recover. Millions, tens of millions in treasure has been recovered in the modern salvage era, Real 8 forward. Just in the last several years, several millions in treasure have been recovered.

That last statement is pretty unfair... A more thorough understanding of the 1715 Fleet and modern salvage operations would dispel such notions. - Cheers

" Did the Indians get more than we ever imagined?"

I don't think the Indians were that interested in gold or silver to risk their lives trying to find it. If they did get a lot we would be finding it all over Fl. which we are not. I think the few ships that got beached dumped the treasure on the coral reefs which would be almost impossible to salvage back then and after all this time is buried in the coral. The deeper ships may have been salvaged but for how long? It takes one good storm to cover anything on the bottom and heavy gold and silver would sink quick. Back then they didn't have the means to fan the sand away or metal detectors to find it. If you go out to the reefs you will see there is only from 1' to 3' covering them with waves crashing in on them all the time. Getting caught on the coral/oyster reef would mean some nasty gashes which could cut to the bone.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Thanks AARC, that I know, but very specifically I am looking for the word, words, wording used in "1715 documents". I am looking for the Spanish usage and not a translated usage.

 

[ARC]

Thanks AARC, that I know, but very specifically I am looking for the word, words, wording used in "1715 documents". I am looking for the Spanish usage and not a translated usage.

IF looking for a "lead" to the POSSIBLE wreck sites of the missing ships... the answers you seek may be much "closer to home" than you think.

I have for many many years... known of 2 locations that I would be willing to bet on that at least one may be one of them.

Too bad "red tape" will forever hang me up from making those dives.

Rare maps and docs exist in private... the ole phrase "its not what you know... but who you know" comes to mind.

Um... by the way AU...

Canaveral existed in texts all the way back to 1500's.

 

[Bum Luck]

Bernard Romans mapped the Florida coast in 1768-9. I am positive that he was working part of the time on the beach, chaining distances and using instruments. 50 years after the wrecks.

By Sebastian inlet he wrote on the map, "Opposite this river. perished, the Admiral commanding the Plate Fleet 1715, the rest of the Fleet 14 in number. Between this and ye Bleech Yard."

The Bleech yard was south.

I found this TNet post: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/s...-romans-when-you-have-boston-news-letter.html

Ok. We all know this, (except possibly his survey techniques) but I would like you to think about what his statements mean in the context of the general knowledge and awareness of the wrecks 2 generations after 1715. And later.

 

[WaveJunky757]

Thanks for the insight and responses Au Fully agreed on it’s not always what you know but who.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Yep AARC thanks....

Still looking for the answer...